The MAID Roundtable: A Global Christian Conversation

(0:00 - 0:13) And give everyone a welcome. I'm Laurel Nicholson. I know many of you, there are a few new faces on here and I wanna give a special welcome to Megan and maybe you could introduce yourself in just a second. (0:13 - 0:32) But this is our weekly gathering, the International Fellowship Cafe does bring people in from around the world. I know there's a few from Canada here now and Joyce is in Australia, which is very exciting. We've had people from Africa here before and London one time. (0:33 - 0:55) So I do love the international opportunity. But we gather here weekly, sometimes we have a topic, sometimes we just fellowship and talk about end of life, the reality of end of life needs and what death means to the Christian faith and the hope of resurrection. And today we're gonna talk about medical aid and dying. (0:55 - 1:12) We talk about it pretty often in the cafe, the training program, the death and resurrection dual training program connected to this cafe. It is a topic of the training. So it's a big deal. (1:12 - 1:30) I remember in 20, I think it was 2019, I was training to be a doula. I had just started and my son's therapist actually said, what do you do exactly? And I said, well, I'm training to be an end of life doula. And he said, that's amazing. (1:31 - 1:59) You are entering this at a very interesting time because medical aid and dying is already passed in some states and we're gonna see more and more of it. And when I trained in 2019, it was not as much of a topic of conversation in the end of life doula world as it is now, just over six years. So this is a timely time to have this conversation. (1:59 - 2:08) I thank you all for being here. Megan, could you give a quick introduction please? Yeah, sure. Hi, so hi everyone. (2:08 - 2:13) It's so nice to meet you all. Firstly, I'm sorry for having my camera off. I'm very sick at the moment, so I'm in bed. (2:13 - 2:23) So I feel like it doesn't look very nice to have my camera on. But I'm Megan, I'm a British journalist living in New York. I recently graduated from an MA in journalism. (2:24 - 2:42) And I think most of you know that the MAID Act passed here in New York, but it hasn't yet been signed into law. And I think there are really good reasons for and against the MAID Act becoming law. And I'm trying to understand more about the reasons for that from the community who has the biggest stakes in it. (2:42 - 3:05) And I think as doulas who care for people at the end of life, it would be very good understanding of what the MAID Act would really look like if it was signed in. So I'm really interested to understand this as a journalist, but also on a personal note, I trained as a birth doula in my early 20s. And one day I would love to join you all in becoming a death doula, maybe at some point in the future. (3:05 - 3:11) So thank you so much for having me. And I'm really looking forward to this discussion. Well, thank you. (3:12 - 3:20) And you're welcome. Anytime at the Fellowship Cafe, it's open to anyone. You can tell other people about it. (3:20 - 3:32) I always appreciate that. And I know there's a few people on this call actually who have something in the birth world as well. So it's a wonderful community. (3:32 - 4:01) I'm very sorry you're not feeling well and I appreciate you showing up today anyway. So I'll take direction from you if that's okay on how you might wanna start the conversation. I did send out the topics that you and I had reviewed as discussion points, but I don't know if you would like to, maybe start with any of those points. (4:02 - 4:39) Yeah. So I had a list of questions that I have sent out that I thought could be useful jumping off points, but I'm really happy to be led by all of you if you wanna take the discussion in a different way. So the first thing I was thinking was, how do you see MAID potentially affecting terminally ill individuals, particularly through the lens of your faith practice or caregiving approaches? So I was really thinking of, do you think it would positively benefit terminally ill individuals or do you have any reservations perhaps due to your Christian faith? I know that Laurel is a Christian practitioner. (4:40 - 5:11) Would it affect you in any way in the way you administer care? I don't know if it makes things more simpler or perhaps more ethically complicated if you're caring for someone who is using MAID in their end of life care. So yeah, I just wanted to know with your connections with people at the end of life, how do you think it would potentially affect them or would have affected them if they had had the opportunity to use this act? Very, very good question. And so let's just take some time to go around. (5:11 - 5:30) You can raise your hand and I'll just call on you for ease of the communication. If anybody's willing to go first. Kathy, and maybe state where, just state where you live too. (5:30 - 5:40) That'll be interesting. Okay, Kathy, I'm from California. And I think many, because we are women of faith, we feel like every breath has been given to us by God. (5:41 - 5:53) And then we also feel He takes our final breath. And what we're learning through this class is that pain is not bad. I mean, we all look, we don't look forward to pain, but God has used it in lives. (5:55 - 6:10) And that's how I would see it. I would go, you're taking away the sovereignty of God in life. And so we've talked about the difference between the euthanasia, the palliative care and the hospice care. (6:10 - 6:31) And I've really loved understanding how you have taken us through that, Laurel, and has helped so much to know we're just easing people's pain levels as they go into that next passageway that God has for all of us. And I just, I love that thought. Thank you for speaking up, Kathy. (6:31 - 6:40) Thank you. Michelle. Hi, Kathy, I'm from California too, but I live in Texas and it's illegal in Texas. (6:41 - 6:56) To do a maid or physician-assisted suicide. And what we've learned is that there's no reason for anyone to be in extreme pain with hospice because of the medication they can take. At least that's what we've heard. (6:57 - 7:22) From a Christian standpoint, I agree with what Kathy said, and I would add too, I think we take away the opportunity for continued growth, healing, reconciliation with God, with others, from the patient. And I think God still works. I've seen somebody who's 97 and she doesn't have any terminal illnesses. (7:23 - 7:35) She's laying in bed and sometimes sits up and she can communicate. She doesn't have anything that would shorten her life except old age. And she still has contributions. (7:35 - 7:46) I was telling her, you still can be praying for your family. You can be talking to God. There's still opportunity for God to come in and to transform that time. (7:47 - 8:01) And pain transforms us, those around who are taking care of her. So to do that, you take away the opportunity for others and for yourself. So that's my first reaction. (8:01 - 8:28) If somebody chose to do that, I might be with them in the decision-making, but at the end of their life, I don't wanna sit by the bedside with somebody who's being euthanized. I just, I couldn't do that, but I would hold their hands and help them and listen for the, as they're trying to discern, is this something I should do? So that's my five cents. That was amazing, Michelle. (8:28 - 8:35) Very bold in your faith. Very, very good. Brenda, I'm so happy you're here. (8:36 - 8:54) And once you say your name and where you're from, and I hope you'll share a little bit of what you've shared with your story. Yeah, yeah, I will. So Brenda, I'm in Canada, Vancouver Island, and I took the Resurrection and Death Doula course in preparation for my own parents' passing. (8:54 - 9:14) And I see my future ministry is maybe help coaching other people who are in that role with their parents. God might choose to expand that, but we'll see. So in writing my story, which I had waited to write after doing the course, because I felt it would be the story of walking alongside one of my parents, which was my dad. (9:14 - 9:34) So my dad passed away this spring, and he did bring up Maid as a possibility about a year before when he was first placed in a designated terminally ill from asbestos. Although it took a lot longer than the doctors expected. But here's the thing where Maid came in. (9:34 - 10:03) With my dad's doctor, his own personal GP, who he's had for years, I felt the conversation was very respectful. And although I voiced that I was not comfortable from my Christian values of being a part of that, I had no problem with the no heroic measures, and my brother had the opposite point of view. Although he came to learn more about the method and had reservations about the method, but not the actual process. (10:03 - 10:20) So that was our family dynamic. When it came time, when we were down to dad's lap, what became dad's last weeks, we were in hospital in a merge, and they discovered he had a pulmonary embolism. And that was in essence the straw that broke the camel's back on top of all the layer of things. (10:20 - 10:34) My dad was 92, a former smoker. So there was a lot impacting. And the ER staff was really good, but their mandate, of course, is to keep the patient going until somebody decides what's next. (10:35 - 10:56) But when the resident doctor, when they decided they would admit him, so he'd be moved from ER, he came down and he was just like, Maid is the answer, you know? And he just, he brought it so bluntly. And my dad had a lot of trouble speaking because of his shortness of breath. So if you can picture that scenario, he's at his weakest, shortness of breath. (10:56 - 11:14) He's just been told that there really isn't much else we can do for you. In fact, the language that was used is, you know, what more do we do, John, you know? So my dad felt very pressured. And when that doctor said, we have someone that can finish your application for Maid, because dad had done the first phase with his own GP. (11:14 - 11:39) Here in Canada, in BC, you have to have two different doctors walk you through what and why and where and when. And so he said, we have a doctor right here that can complete this for you right now and we can take care of it. And then that doctor, gratefully, left the room and my dad turned to me and with limited breath said, what's the hurry? Is there a rush? And I said, no, dad, this is your timeline. (11:40 - 12:00) And I'm just gonna back up a little bit. When dad first had the initial paperwork for potentially doing Maid, and I was just praying for wisdom, and God said, don't worry so much about how he goes, just that he's ready. So that peace from my savior helped steady my heart to walk through this difficult time. (12:01 - 12:25) And then dad, again, back forward again to in the hospital, and he said, I'm having doubts and he's having trouble getting just a full sentence out. So if he didn't have me there as an advocate, the process might just have gone without, anyway, I don't even wanna think about that. But then they moved us upstairs and we talked about palliative care at home for my dad. (12:26 - 12:47) And when that doctor came in and was pressuring again, and he says, are you in pain, John? And my dad said, no, and then he shook his head no and he starts palpitating my dad's abdomen and see the grimace, he's in pain. And so there was just so much pressure to do Maid. We had to fight to take dad home, which was his preference. (12:47 - 12:59) He had always said Maine would be a last thing only if it was unbearable. So he wasn't about just doing it right away. And we are, his GP had given my mom his personal cell phone number. (12:59 - 13:22) So even though he was away on a retreat, we were able to get ahold of him and my brother and I talked to him and then conveyed to the doctor. So then we were released to take my dad home and we had about 10 days as a family. And all of the medications that we've learned about to ease pain and suffering, we had some beautiful moments as a family that would have been lost otherwise. (13:23 - 13:43) So I guess my biggest thing that I wanna convey here is it becomes a pressure. And maybe that doctor in his mind thought, oh, this man sought out Maid and his family are preventing it. You know, I don't know all of the back water there, but yeah, anyway, there's my story. (13:44 - 13:57) And I'm open to questions if anybody wants to ask specific questions. Wow, wow, Brenda. I mean, I've known you for a little over a year now, I think, and watched through your story, you know, what's been going on. (13:57 - 14:13) And it sounds like you have a pretty reasonable, you know, family situation and that Maid can become very confusing and conflicting very easily inside a family. Your brother, you know, felt one way about it. You felt another way. (14:13 - 14:43) Your dad thought about it. You know, there's pressure, you know, from the physicians that this is not gonna be, you know, having the option of medically dying or physician's assisted suicide is likely gonna cause a lot of strife and confusion and heartache for some families. Some, you know, everybody may be on the same page and, you know, there's no discussion either way, but there is a great potential for real hardship with it. (14:43 - 15:04) Wow, does anybody else want to, you know, I wanna go last. Just, does anybody else wanna just give everybody else a chance first? We have some more questions as well. We can go down those and you can always come back to, you know, to one of the first questions if that is good for you. (15:05 - 15:15) Laurel, I have a question. Yes. Just listening to Brenda's story, my heart is breaking, but I'm glad it turned out well. (15:16 - 16:20) My question is, as I'm listening to this, and I think I know the answer to it already, but how long has made Ben a thing? Like how long, when was that brought into the public eye? And do, is this just more of like the stage that it's in right now? Is it more of a, what's the word I'm looking for? Like experimental thing where they're kind of seeing like, is this something people are going to be interested in? Like, is it in a study phase right now or are they just like full force ahead with it? Cause I know it's not legal in every single state, but, and then another question too, obviously there's pharmaceuticals involved in doing what they do with this. And so is this going to turn into something where hospitals are going to be making a lot of money off of stuff like this, because now they know that there's another way to assist families, you know, in their time of need. So yeah, I guess there's like three questions involved. (16:22 - 16:43) Very, very, very good questions. I'm going to see if Megan, if she, in her research, if you have information around, I heard kind of two to three questions, but around those two to three questions. Hi, yeah. (16:43 - 17:05) So I believe in the U.S. it began in Oregon in the late nineties and has slowly grown to be legalized in other states. Brenda's just mentioned that it was legalized in Canada in June, 2016. And from what I've heard, yes, especially in the Canada case, it does seem that it's a way for pharmaceutical companies to make money. (17:05 - 17:28) And there have been reports of a lot of pressure as Brenda so beautifully and movingly illustrated, a lot of pressure to use MAID for people who are terminally ill or who are experiencing chronic pain. And I think that's a lot of the reservations that we're seeing in New York against it being signed into law. That's all I know at the moment, but I'm sure you have more insight around. (17:28 - 17:55) Well, I mean, I read about it. One of the things I was surprised about in Oregon was like the support for it is a lot higher than the actual numbers of people that use the medication. So like people, like I thought maybe we could say there had been 10,000 deaths in Oregon. (17:55 - 18:03) I don't think so. I think it's more in the few thousands. I would need to check the statistics again, but that's what I remember reading. (18:05 - 18:15) So, and so, right, it's not legal in every state in the United States. Canada, it is legal. Very progressive, I believe in Canada. (18:15 - 18:58) And Brenda's story is confirming that there, he's not here today, but Miles Gletzner, he opened a home in New Mexico, which is one of the most progressive states that their legislature around medical end dying is very progressive. And he's opened a home for people who either don't have a place to have their end of their life, or they don't have family to support them at the end of their life. So he's opened a home called Enora, and it is, you cannot do medical aid and dying at Enora. (18:58 - 19:34) But one of the things he was telling me was that, because New Mexico passed a legislature later than a state like Oregon, they've been able to watch some of the holdups for other states. And so that's how they were able to change their language in passing the law that makes it more progressive. So, as time goes on, kind of to bring this back to what's going on in New York is other states watching other states is turning this progressive wheel. (19:34 - 20:21) And we're seeing in Canada that, and I think there's some been reports of this in California too, that there's pressure. And it's not only for people who are terminally ill, but there are people who actually don't have the resources to care for themselves. So that is, one of the things I read is they call it a slippery slope, right? People can say, man, I really want people to have the freedom to choose the way that they're going to die, the timeline that they're going to die, but I sure hate the doors that it opens, right? So some people find themselves somewhere sandwiched in there, but I think it's truthful, very true that it is opening doors and we're seeing that actually happen. (20:22 - 20:38) Joyce, all the way over in Australia, we would love to hear your thoughts and your feelings. I'm just backing off what you said in Canada is that it's not even terminally ill anymore. It's just even social issues. (20:38 - 21:03) Like I was watching like a YouTube thing and there was a guy who was going to become homeless and he had a disability and he said, well, I prefer to use medical assisted suicide, whatever you want to call it. It's got all different acronyms, rather than just dying and freezing to death on the street because I'll be homeless. So it's even gone further. (21:03 - 21:22) Sorry about that. It's even gone further than just an illness or like a terminal illness. And I also feel that we... So I was nursing and in a sense, we do euthanasia in the hospital already. (21:22 - 21:33) We just hurry it up a little bit. And I believe we rob families of those last days, those last moments, like how Brenda was talking about those last 10 days. You'll never forget those days. (21:33 - 21:54) Those days are just so very, very precious and very important of spending that time together. And I feel very strongly from a biblical perspective is that God does give life and then it's up to God to take life. And we wouldn't have ethical issues if we just followed God's timing and not our own timing. (21:55 - 22:21) And yes, like we've said as well, there are things like we have Ira Biok's book about dying well, that there are ways of relieving suffering. And I do think it's a good topic to bring up if it does come up with families because then you can talk and you can explore why do people actually wanna choose this route. But I've also had in Australia as well, I have ongoing Zoom talks as well. (22:22 - 22:45) And it really, it sat really badly with me that there was a social worker who was convincing Christians that it was okay. Like that people ethically go against it and then they have social workers or somebody coming in and have to convince them that yes, it is a Christian thing to do to be able to relieve someone's suffering. And I find that very disturbing because I don't think it sits well with people. (22:45 - 22:56) And it comes back to God gives life, God takes life and his timing is the best. Wow. Well, amazing. (22:56 - 23:33) Thank you for sharing that Joyce. I think so far we're seeing a pattern, right? That are, and I don't wanna speak for everyone because you haven't raised your, if you hadn't raised your hand, but our faith does give us a sense around how we feel about this. And that real, what I've heard I think from everyone is that there is this last time that could be taken away because somebody wants to end their life prematurely. (23:34 - 24:01) And there's even discussions around why do we call it made? Why we should call it physician's assisted suicide? Let's name it what it is because taking your life prematurely, even though you have a terminal illness, you know, it still is suicide. But that's what I believe. I think, you know, the theme I'm hearing here is that you would likely say that too. (24:02 - 24:21) But there's, you know, one of the big challenges in this conversation is that a lot of people do not think that, you know, well, you are dying. So therefore it's not suicide. But one of the real truths with hospice is that, you know, some people graduate from hospice care. (24:22 - 24:33) You know, that is, you know, not all the time, but I've actually seen it twice. And so, you know, just, I don't know. It's not legal in my state. (24:33 - 25:02) So I haven't, you know, been deeply involved in it other than I did have a friend who used medical aid in dying, a friend from Colorado. I don't live there anymore, but I, you know, heard of her journey a little bit, talked to her one time about it. But, so I don't know if it's the same in every state, but I think in Colorado, there was a two week waiting period before she could actually have the medication, have access to it. (25:02 - 26:20) And she went into hospice pretty much late in the game, but, you know, had at least two weeks and then she used medical aid in dying. And so I guess it depends, you know, how long someone's in hospice, what the waiting period is, but it certainly would be, you know, really disastrous if someone might get better or if they had, you know, family things to settle that did not get settled, you know, is medical aid in dying for some people, you know, a shortcut. And so I think that could lead us into our second thing that we have listed here, which is, in what ways can death doulas contribute to ensuring people are emotionally, spiritually and ethically supported in their end of life decisions? So, you know, let's say, you know, maid is legal in your state and, you know, what can we do as death doulas? You know, I know Joyce through training a couple of times said, you know, if someone's interested, she's not just gonna, you know, interested in medical aid in dying, walk away and say, oh, well, I can't be around you. (26:20 - 26:45) She wants to engage. And I think Michelle, I've heard her say the same thing. Is there something I can do as a doula with, you know, a faith-based practice that might help discover, you know, what is behind this? You know, is it a shortcut? Are there things that, you know, family issues that could be settled? So maybe I'll leave the floor open again. (26:45 - 27:08) And Megan, please cut in if you wanna add anything or, you know, ask us any questions. The woman in Colorado, she had, she had a really interesting journey. And like, honestly, I'm not surprised to medical aid in dying was a part of that journey. (27:09 - 27:24) She, you know, kind of like we had been friends for some time. Our children were born around the same time. And so we went to, you know, the mother and child gatherings together and saw each other at the park and would take walks. (27:24 - 27:52) And so I knew her, I knew her pretty well. She always explored Christianity, but never took, you know, never converted to the Christian faith, never professed Christ as her savior. She was interested in some of the, I guess, the moral, you know, considerations of, you know, Christ as, you know, a moral figure or something like that. (27:52 - 28:16) But she never, she never, you know, submitted to faith in Christ. And so when she received cancer diagnosis, I think a lot of her choices were made through her own suffering, which is that her mother committed suicide when she was a teenager. And so it was a terrible, terrible situation. (28:17 - 28:31) I think it was actually like a double suicide with the boyfriend. So it was something that really plagued my friend. And so a lot of her life choices were made from that pain that had not been resolved. (28:31 - 28:45) And as, you know, as a Christian, I would say certainly, you know, having faith, you know, does bring us peace. It doesn't always eradicate, you know, all of our suffering. We suffer very much as Christians. (28:46 - 29:05) But she avoided pretty much her treatment. She avoided, you know, caring for her children and making some decisions that would have been perhaps more of motherly-type decisions for her family. And so she pretended that she didn't have cancer. (29:05 - 29:18) And when the end came, she, you know, took that hospice referral. And then in, you know, within two weeks, it was able to receive the maid. She set a date, she took it. (29:18 - 29:54) And so, you know, our children, our daughters being the same age, you know, they were teenagers. So I share that story to say there is a continuance of her own pain that she put into her daughter's life. And so, you know, a doula, you know, if the dying person and their family are open to the discussion, exploring some of that, you know, through the work that a doula could do with a family, I do believe could possibly, you know, make a difference. (29:56 - 30:32) Yeah, Michelle. I think if I was there, how would I encourage, I'm not sure quite the question, but it was like, how can we help someone who's trying to make that decision? Was that it? Let me read it again. What ways can death doulas contribute to ensuring people are emotionally, spiritually, and ethically supported at the end of their life? So how could we contribute to the support that people need? That's emotional, spiritual, ethical support. (30:32 - 30:43) Yeah. Oh, I think there's a couple of ways. One is we're offering this presence, nonjudgmental, peaceful presence where somebody can explore their feelings. (30:44 - 31:01) Let's talk about the fear. Let's talk about, you know, and how does, can you say more about that, you know, and just be there as a good listening ear. And I would pray that the person would have faith and trust and have courage to take the next step, whatever God's calling her to. (31:02 - 31:24) You shared, I think you gave us an article and it was about, maybe it was through 1517. And it was about someone saying that a Christian, this may be the last, this is a testimony, kind of like a Christian martyr. It's like, you're gonna choose to suffer for your faith instead of take it into your own hands. (31:24 - 31:29) Whereas it's been becoming so acceptable. Of course you have an option. You don't have to suffer. (31:30 - 31:55) So it was like, almost like a state, you know, you're gonna say, I'm going to do this because this is what God's called. And then there's a difference between, I think one of the things we learned was a lot of faith, people, a lot of believers, Christians, do a lot of the life, the extensive life thing. So they keep the suffering going because they don't wanna take out the tube. (31:55 - 32:03) They don't wanna, and they keep the suffering and prolong this process of dying and suffering. I'm not sure I'm saying it right. You could say it better. (32:04 - 32:24) But those two things came to mind. And I just think the being there and praying with the person and being available, but encouraging them about, this is a courageous step you're taking, you know? You can add to it, Laura. Joyce, thank you, Michelle. (32:25 - 33:00) I think the word is life-sustaining, Michelle, what you were talking, those that continue on with life-sustaining measures, like ventilators or people who aren't eating and insert feeding tubes, all that sort of stuff. It's interesting, because I was just thinking today, what if, as doulas, we actually eradicated the need to have these conversations? You've talked before about the carer shortage. People are lonely. (33:00 - 33:31) People don't, you know, they're at their homes, you know, the younger generation or the next generation are busy working and don't have time for the elderly. You know, what if we, as doulas, could go in and eradicate the need for assisted suicide, because we're being there, because we're, you know, we're holding their hand. We're, yeah, like eradicating the need, because we're with people in their suffering. (33:31 - 33:46) We're with people in their loneliness. We're walking alongside people. And that's how I would see how doulas can, like, yeah, walk alongside people. (33:47 - 33:54) And really, there you go, Michelle. Yeah, and I agree with you. And I'm just thinking of this culture, it's death. (33:54 - 34:01) We are into a death denial culture and suffering denial. It's like, you don't need to suffer. You can do this and that. (34:01 - 34:22) You know, it's like, people want to deny both of those. So sorry to interrupt, but yes, I think the companionship is key. So I put the article you mentioned, Michelle, by 1517, I put it in the chat, and that way Megan can grab it if she wants to see it. (34:23 - 34:42) You know, you brought up two really good, couple of really good things. Joyce, loneliness, right? I mean, wow, loneliness. People may think, I cannot live out the rest of my life I'm dying. (34:43 - 35:19) I just want to go ahead and get it over with, right? But loneliness and pain are things that should be able to be taken care of by a community, right, and in hospice care. So if we are failing people, that they need to choose not to claim dying because they either aren't getting the emotional and spiritual and physical support they need, like, that's a societal problem. That's like, I think we can't say to people, oh, they're crazy because they think that, you know, physician's assistant suicide is the answer. (35:19 - 35:48) Our society is lacking in the fundamental support that it offers, you know, citizens. And so, you know, there's a, you know, I do think, and you brought it up Joyce, a care, like, you know, a crisis, and one of the things this training program is formed on is a caregiving crisis, a hospice crisis. And we study the book, The Crisis of U.S. Hospice Care by Harold Braswell. (35:48 - 36:29) He goes in depth on medical aid and dying and its risks, but we're also having a faith crisis. And so these, you know, part of the hospice crisis is that the regulation and the medical hospice benefit, the medical, now I'm just drawing a blank exactly what it's called, but the Medicare hospice benefit is, you know, limits the amount of time that a nurse and a social worker and the chaplain and all of these, you know, different components of hospice care can actually be, you know, inside of family's home. And so dying at home is a big deal. (36:29 - 36:45) And for some families, it's too big of a deal. And so, but we are seeing efforts inside communities. I mentioned Miles' Enora home to make a place for people who cannot have that supported home. (36:45 - 36:56) It doesn't mean they don't have a home. They may not have a spouse, or they may not have adult children who live nearby if they had children at all. So, you know, there's a lot of perils. (36:56 - 37:02) You know, a lot of the baby boomers are divorced. A lot of them didn't have children. You know, there's a lot of people who are alone. (37:03 - 37:29) And if our society can't, you know, buttress itself to support every single person, I mean, we have, you know, we have a lot of work to do. And so one beautiful thing about the doula movement is that this call is being made. Our communities, no matter what race, what socioeconomic category you fall into, we all need to get involved. (37:29 - 37:56) Because we don't have a support. And medical aid in dying, I think that most people, even if they say, sure, I want people to have the opportunity to choose it if they want it, I think most people would say, it's not the solution to a societal problem, right? It's not the solution. And we must do better. (37:56 - 38:08) We must do better inside of our communities if people feel forced to have to actually take their own life. Yeah, it's really interesting to hear from all of you. Thank you. (38:09 - 38:27) It's definitely also interconnected. And there needs to be a lot more systemic care to help people with housing, with debt, with everything. In the last few months, I was recently looking after a family friend who wasn't really getting a lot of support. (38:27 - 38:33) And I'm very new to the US. I've only been here two years. So I'm still really understanding how the healthcare system works. (38:33 - 38:40) But he was in his 80s. He lived alone in New Jersey. I was with him a week before he died. (38:41 - 38:48) And he would have a visitor maybe once a day, once every couple of days. And they didn't really do anything for him. His house was still a mess. (38:48 - 38:58) He could barely get up and use the bathroom without assistance. And it wasn't a good state to live in. And then eventually he did go to the hospital and ended up passing there. (38:58 - 39:21) But there definitely needs to be so much more support for people before they get to that point. There needs to be more affordable housing, better at-home care before this even becomes an issue. And hearing from all of you, I haven't really thought about it from a Christian perspective, but it seems like a lot of, there's so much emphasis on personal responsibility in the US. (39:21 - 39:32) In the UK, we have the NHS, so we have free healthcare. But here, if you want something done to your health, you do it yourself. Everything is a personal decision. (39:32 - 39:51) So then we don't really have these communal frameworks for how to understand dying or how to understand communal care delivery. So I think it's really interesting to hear. I think the strongest argument against MAID is the fact that we need more systemic solutions to prevent people even being in pain, in that level of pain to begin with. (39:52 - 40:18) And we can't use assisted dying as a sort of cop-out to excuse not giving people the care they need when they're at their end of life. And also, as you mentioned, the faith crisis, having some kind of framework with which to understand what death means and how we're to show up for ourselves and our loved ones. I think it's really interesting to hear from all of you. (40:18 - 40:24) And I'm really grateful that you're sharing your perspectives with me. Thank you. Thank you for that feedback. (40:24 - 40:32) I think this is a very well-rounded conversation. Yeah, Allegra. Yeah. (40:33 - 41:00) I like what you said about the US having such a personal responsibility focus. And that's kind of what's been bouncing in my head through this topic, because for me, having come somewhat recently to faith, it was that shift in perspective for me that sort of has helped to explain stuff that I've kind of been trying to believe all along. And it was just hard to find a structure that supported that. (41:01 - 41:26) And it was around that thing of control. I feel that so much of our suffering in life, excuse me, is this attempt to grasp onto control. And I think that in the culture that I've lived in, in the US, and largely secular in my communities, it is so much about you do it for yourself, you take your own responsibility. (41:28 - 41:47) And yet we feel so oppressed. And that was, I mean, that was what held me back from religion for so long because it felt oppressive. And so when I first heard of MADE before Finding Faith, I remember thinking, oh yeah, there's an opportunity for someone to make their own choice and feel a sense of control and power. (41:48 - 42:15) And yet it still didn't sit right with me because I felt like, but wouldn't it be even more beautiful to feel supported in surrendering and not grasping onto control to the very end? And so there's this push-pull between wanting to control and wanting to surrender. And what are you surrendering to? I don't know, this was more articulate in my head. But so to me, I see this very much as a concept. (42:15 - 42:47) I think Joyce said, asking people why they would be making that choice and then being there to support them through that. Because I think that, I think that so many people are suffering and feeling that they just don't have the support they need and that this is an opportunity to end with dignity or choice or control. And yet I don't know that that ultimately ends up really pushing through to the real issue of the lack of support that you all were talking about. (42:47 - 43:03) And so I think it's very important. I try very hard when I come to these conversations, I wasn't sure I was even gonna speak, that I want it to be very much about not trying to control people. So it's not trying to say, oh, we have to tell people they can't do this. (43:03 - 43:27) It has to be about why would we wanna do this? And there may be something even more beautiful to be experienced that maybe there is beauty in the suffering and maybe there is beauty in this experience. So having witnessed two deaths myself, I found each experience very beautiful. And in one experience, I had not come to faith yet. (43:27 - 43:44) And in the next one I had, and they were both beautiful to me for somewhat the same reason how this was so out of my control. And it let me step back and experience something that I wasn't trying to be in charge of. So I'm gonna stop there because. (43:45 - 43:53) That's amazing. Well, Allegra, you bring a wonderful perspective because you are newer to the faith and you live in a progressive state. You're in California. (43:54 - 44:24) You know, there's a lot of doulas in California who are probably heavily pro-made. One of the articles I've shared with the training program and I shared it with Megan is, you can actually take, I think it's about two hours or maybe an hour and a half, a little course and pay $20 and get certified if you're a doula to be like a medical aid and dying assistant, kind of. You help them with the paperwork. (44:25 - 44:39) You help them with the actual process. You can mix the solution. You can't give it to, you can't be the one who knocks it back down their throat but you can hand them the glass. (44:39 - 44:52) They have to be able to take it themselves. But one of the reasons this is becoming a thing is because medical aid and dying is not that easy. First of all, people find the applications, I guess, cumbersome. (44:52 - 45:12) And then once they actually have the medications at home, a lot of people reported here that they aren't doing it right. And so if you don't do it right, you can actually have a very bad outcome. And there's some YouTube resources that you can watch. (45:12 - 45:35) One is a physician who talks about actually what is happening to the body during the dying process when someone has ingested the medical aid and dying medication. And it's not, I don't think it's good. I think it can actually cause us a lot of distress on the body, although one of the medications in the solution is a paralytic. (45:35 - 46:08) I think I'm saying all of this right. And so those witnessing don't see that it's as hard of a process on the body but apparently there's some fluid in the lungs and it could be a feeling of drowning. So that's like, honestly, a natural death, particularly if the pain is managed through appropriate channels like morphine, there may be a more comfortable end of life. (46:09 - 46:24) And one, I think misconception people have, because we don't know and we don't talk about death a lot. We may not know these things, but it's that it is not dying that's painful. It is the disease process that causes the pain. (46:24 - 46:53) So if someone has this type of cancer or this type of cancer, their pain is caused because of what's going on as that cancer progresses. And so if people are afraid of dying naturally because they're afraid it's going to be very painful, that they wanna take the medical aid dying process instead, they really need to get that information. Their death may not be painful if they've died naturally. (46:53 - 47:10) Perhaps they're dying of something that is old age. It doesn't have metastatic cancer invading the bones. I've seen some of the families I've worked for, the dying person, I've seen varying levels of pain. (47:11 - 47:33) I've seen one situation where morphine was only used just to kind of make the breathing more comfortable and regular. And they were very, very nervous about using morphine. And the hospice encouraged them to start with a little bit and everyone was happier and they only used a little bit. (47:33 - 48:11) She was still quite alert and she wasn't in a tremendous amount of pain. So there are stories of people's passing that certainly can, I think, maybe calm some of our fears. If we do our research and know a little more jumping to such drastic conclusions out of fear, but then I think would potentially lead to having the medical aid dying in your hands and not knowing how to do it correctly. (48:11 - 48:27) So there's a lot going on. I think our framework doesn't, our mind, our mental framework, maybe doesn't allow everything to be understood. We're like, oh, I just want this, I want it now. (48:27 - 48:48) But there's actually a lot going on with it that people may not be aware of. But Tina from Canada. Yeah, something that we haven't touched on yet, I don't think today at least, is made not just for old sick people. (48:48 - 49:04) That's generally what people think about. They're terminally ill, they're dying anyways, but here in Canada where it is legal, it's that slippery slope. And the only thing that remains the same is God himself. (49:05 - 49:14) So everything else is changing. It's either changing for the better or changing for the worst. And knowing that the root of this, I mean, we know that we have an enemy that's spiritual. (49:14 - 49:32) He comes to lie, steal, kill and destroy. And I think that's the root of this. And when I look at where we're headed with MAID, and from my own personal experience, I think I've mentioned it before on here, I lost a dear friend to MAID. (49:33 - 49:48) They almost popped my mother, my stepmother off last year with MAID. I offer continually offering it to her when she had, she broke her neck. They offered it before her surgery, instead of surgery. (49:48 - 49:54) She had her surgery, they offered it after surgery. She's only gonna have this much time left. It's gonna be very painful. (49:55 - 50:11) Well, she recovered and that happens. And you don't know if it's gonna happen if you take that route first off. But this is more than, well, actually it was for her, it's been a few years now and her life has dramatically improved. (50:11 - 50:31) And I'm so thankful that she didn't choose that. But I'm sad that that was always an option put before her and it's a door that they leave open. And so for me, if I were to be in this situation where I was supporting somebody at the end of life, I would wanna be honest with them about where I stand. (50:32 - 51:01) So I don't have like a hidden agenda and I'm trying to manipulate them into doing my will. But I see it as an opportunity to share my faith in that, yeah, there's a battle for the soul and for their life. And it's an invisible battle, but at least when they know where I stand and I can communicate to them their value, their very existence is precious and valuable and they are irreplaceable. (51:02 - 51:28) And knowing that they're isolated and feeling worthless and like a burden, just being there like they were saying earlier to counter those messages and know that there's purpose as long as they have breath, there's hope. And I've seen, I've literally seen the dead raised. And so I would never want to hurry somebody's death. (51:28 - 52:22) But my concern is for what they're looking at now, which is to extend it to children, 12 to 18 mature minors who are already legally allowed to make their own medical decisions, including whether or not to accept or refuse lifesaving treatment. It's just a matter of time before this is not just available, but offered because especially in the teen years, they're not the easiest to deal with. They're complicated, they're very hard to serve with fewer people willing to be involved with kids with multi barriers to having a regular functioning life in society. (52:22 - 52:59) And I just see them as so vulnerable and in a land where it's okay to kill the most innocent in what's supposed to be the safest place, the womb. I don't think there'll be a lot of resistance when it comes to young people choosing that themselves and just the wording, how they just use semantics to get around just, yeah, our values. And yeah, that's my concern, next generation. (52:59 - 53:07) And that they're offering it to, like I said, my friend who was an alcoholic. She was an alcoholic, she went for help. And they said, well, we can give you this. (53:08 - 53:59) That's outrageous to me. So the dignity, so a lot of the things you may find if you're doing research on medically dying or physicians assisted suicide is you're gonna see the word dignity come up, right? Death with dignity. So another one of the points of discussion listed, and I don't think we're gonna be able to get to all of them because we're nearing the hour, but it says, what do you think the public and spiritual or faith communities especially still misunderstand about MADE? How might dialogue or compassionate care help bridge that gap? And I think this response I'm about to make fits well with that point is that, or that question, is that worth is like our worth. (53:59 - 54:28) I think maybe society has got a perverted sense around what it actually means to have worth, right? So they're using, it's dignity such that you don't need the care at the end of the life. You're cutting your life short instead of actually having to be humble and rely on people. And for other people to be humble that you need their care and for them to put other things aside to make sure that a person's getting the care that they need. (54:29 - 55:07) So that's dignity, right? But instead medical aid in dying is saying, oh no, dignity is to be able to avoid suffering or avoid needing that kind of care. And so our worth, whether it's one day in the womb or one day away from death from pancreas cancer, right? A pancreatic cancer, our worth is the same because as Christians, we believe we were created by God and that God has a plan. His will includes our life. (55:07 - 55:24) And that means from the time that he gives life to the time that he takes it away. And so I think the Christian concept of dignity is gonna be predicated on that. And so it doesn't mean that every Christian is against medical aid in dying. (55:24 - 55:41) I actually know some Christians who aren't against it. And if you go to the Compassionate Choices website, which is a wealth of information around what medical aid in dying is, I mean, it's very much pro medical aid in dying. It's making sure you get it if you want it. (55:42 - 56:14) But they have a list of faith leaders who have signed on that they are for it. And one of the things that one of the faith leaders says, I'm just, it's popping into my head, is that God doesn't want us to suffer. And that's an interesting point because we don't believe in a God that is full of malice and jamming his thumb into our deepest wound and making pro-suffering. (56:14 - 56:42) But we also know that throughout all of scripture, it's pointed to one thing, and that is that a God himself has come to be the suffering servant in Jesus Christ, and that he lived out the life of sorrow. And that doesn't mean that we all need to just be like, oh, life is terrible. No, there's so much joy, and joy can even be found in those seasons of sorrow and suffering. (56:42 - 57:02) And not every season in our life is full of sorrow and suffering, but some of them are. And it's just a fact. Whether you believe in Jesus or not, there is more suffering than any of us would like to experience or see someone that we love experience. (57:02 - 57:17) And so whether you wanna look at the end of life from a Christian perspective or a non-Christian perspective, there is suffering with death. There just is. There's grief, there's mourning, and there's disappointment. (57:17 - 57:43) I mean, it is so disappointing. And the good news with our faith and the good news of the gospel is that the suffering is, it has hope. And Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4, I believe, that we grieve, we don't grieve as those without hope. (57:43 - 58:03) We do have hope. So it infiltrates into our grief and we certainly can lose sight of it at times. But I do think the conversations need to be, I think they need to involve a better theology, honestly. (58:03 - 58:26) I think that a lot of Christians maybe feel a little disconnected from what hope means. Like, what does it really mean? And that we rely on contemporary healing practices and then healing doesn't happen. And we think that God has abandoned us or not listened to our prayers or something. (58:26 - 58:46) And the story is just so much larger than that. And it's available to our senses because the word of God is living and it's true. And his word says that he's come in flesh to die the death that we all will die. (58:47 - 58:59) But those who believe have eternal life. And so I am Protestant. I very much believe in faith justification by faith through grace. (58:59 - 59:26) So I do believe that if someone committed suicide out of despair, if someone chose metaplating dying, I personally, my faith is that God is, we are justified in Christ on what Christ has done on our behalf. I think that the Christian life leads to a lot of suffering. And that may be a choice someone makes. (59:30 - 59:49) But I think there's such a bigger story that how can we bridge the gap in our communities? I think we need better theology truly in this 21st century. Can I, I know we're running out of time, but there is one question that's just coming to my mind that I'd like to raise if that's okay. Yes. (59:50 - 1:00:14) I'm so surprised at a lot of the things I'm hearing with how maid has been pressured to the people, everyone's loved ones in ways that aren't even terminal. I mean, Tina mentioning her friend who had alcohol, who was an alcoholic being pressured to use maid and her mother-in-law before a neck surgery, that's just crazy. And I've never heard of that happening in other spaces. (1:00:14 - 1:01:06) And I think the thing I'm thinking now is, I mean, maid in New York, its proponents would argue that it's safer than in Canada because in Canada maid can be used for chronic illnesses as well as terminal illnesses. The proponents of maid in New York, I think would say that there are enough safeguards built in to prevent people being pressured to use it for chronic illnesses or for alcoholism or for something that could be managed with better health care and mental health care. If maid was to be passed in New York, I just wanna be clear, are you against it completely or do you think there are some safeguards that could be built in to make it ethical in very certain and very limited situations? Cause it sounds like it's, yeah. (1:01:07 - 1:01:58) It sounds like it's proponents think that there are already enough safeguards, but the way it's being used in practice sounds like there's actually a lot of pressure involved. The problem is how long will those safeguards stay? You know how laws get passed and then bit by bit it gets kind of watered down and those safeguards or what's the word, exceptions, just no longer hold, they just don't hold anymore. And so here's an example, which I don't know whether we should use, but over here, they went the route of, it's a bit of a different topic, but the route of gay marriage. (1:01:58 - 1:02:39) And so now that you have gay marriage, now it was only a door to be able to have, children exposed in a library to drag queens reading stories to them. So it's sort of, it starts at one point, but it can go very quickly to another point. And so like someone used the example also of Canada, of children, I had heard that there was a child who got a terminal or had cancer diagnosis without her parents' permission or even discussion, they had already talked to this child, newly diagnosed about medical assisted suicide. (1:02:40 - 1:03:06) So how long do those safeguards actually stay there? Once you start, it's, I don't know if those safeguards would stay because people aren't watching them. Like it's a big issue, I'm guessing right now in New York, but are people gonna be watching for when the rules get mullied and the safeguards start getting removed or are just not taken? Yeah, people aren't gonna be watching for that anymore. I don't know if that makes sense, but. (1:03:07 - 1:03:17) No, I think you are. And Tina made a really great point in the chat. Safeguards will become obstacles to access. (1:03:17 - 1:03:48) Greed will drive out the obstacles. Because I think that people, like in New York, when I lived there, I got a call from somebody and I never met them in person, it was only one phone call, but they wanted, they were not terminal and they wanted to hire me as a doula to sit with them and they take their life through voluntary stopping eating and drinking. And of course, I didn't have to think twice. (1:03:48 - 1:04:03) I said, I cannot do that for you. But I share that as an example that there are people who are going to want access to Maid once it's passed for one set of the population. They're gonna want it even if they don't have a terminal illness. (1:04:04 - 1:04:32) And so, I imagine over time, these safeguards will be loosened. And Harold Braswell in his book, The Crisis of U.S. Hostage Care, Family and Freedom at the End of Life, that's the whole title of the book. He talked, he's the one that, I heard him call it a slippery slope, right? Passing it opens the door for more in the future. (1:04:33 - 1:05:08) And I think, and I don't know the history of it in Canada. So Tina and Brenda, I think you're my only two from Canada here today could say, did it start this open or did it move to more of an open access thing? I don't think that, I mean, my recollection is that it continues to move more openly. I don't think it started this open. (1:05:08 - 1:05:20) Like I think that people point- I think you're right, Laurel. I just looked that up now. You're right, it said it began with a much narrower framework in 2016 and then more lenient over time with the conditions. (1:05:20 - 1:05:48) So in 2015, the court struck down the ban on assisted dying and said the ruling only applied to competent adults with grievous and irremediable, sorry, medical conditions. And then that got more open to eligibility for people whose natural death were only reasonably foreseeable. So that really expanded the degree of who would be eligible for MADE. (1:05:48 - 1:05:56) So yeah, I think you have a really good point there. All of you do. Michelle, so Michelle, Megan. (1:05:56 - 1:06:07) Michelle recently met a wonderful lady named Lydia Dugdale and she lives in New York. She's a physician. And she may be an interesting person for you to contact. (1:06:07 - 1:06:23) She is a Christian. She's at Columbia, is that right, Michelle? Columbia University Hospital. We can share her email address, but she did tell Michelle she doesn't always get to her email, but you could try. (1:06:24 - 1:06:33) I mean, I think she would probably respond to you. From a Christian physician's point of view, it might be interesting. That would be great. (1:06:34 - 1:06:39) Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. She has a great book called The Lost Art of Dying. (1:06:39 - 1:07:02) And she opens up the book talking about her experience with this one family. And I think maybe they're Hispanic if I'm recalling correctly, but she resuscitated the father three times one night. And Michelle was alluding to this, is that oftentimes Christians will hold on and keep trying the life sustaining measures. (1:07:03 - 1:07:21) And she talks a little bit about the history of this in her book and that the pastors actually are supportive of this. So, so many different avenues to explore around the topic. Thank you so much. (1:07:21 - 1:07:31) That would be amazing. And if anyone wants to speak about this with me one-on-one outside of this call, I'm very happy to speak more. And thank you all for your time. (1:07:31 - 1:07:39) I just really appreciate you sharing your perspectives and your personal stories. It's been so moving and really special to hear from all of you. Oh, wow. (1:07:39 - 1:07:55) Thank you for, again, for the invitation. Did you happen to read the article that was in the Atlantic Monthly about Canada killing itself? I don't think, is it a recent one? Yeah, I just, yeah, I just saw it. Oh, wow. (1:07:56 - 1:08:02) I'll look it up. Atlantic Monthly, I think. It's Canada Killing Itself. (1:08:02 - 1:08:10) I think that was the title. Let me see. I just sent it to my friend in Canada and she's a believer and she can't believe how bad it is. (1:08:14 - 1:08:22) Oh yeah, Canada is Killing. Oh, it's called the, in the Atlantic.com. Canada is Killing Itself. Wow. (1:08:22 - 1:08:34) Can you share that article as well, Michelle? Maybe even on the, oh, maybe you could do it as a private message maybe, but yeah, I'd be interested to hear that. I still have my heart in Canada. Okay. (1:08:36 - 1:08:48) Canada is Killing Itself by the Atlantic. I guess you can go to .com. Yeah, it's right there. Okay, thank you. (1:08:49 - 1:09:03) Wow. Well, this was a, thank you everybody for coming. I know it's not a easy thing to want to think about or talk about, but I do hope that we can make an impact. (1:09:05 - 1:09:22) Even if, I mean, I suspect the laws will be passed. Like I do. I imagine more and more states will pass the laws and that doesn't mean that we can't still have these frank conversations, right? The passage of the law just means it's available. (1:09:22 - 1:09:44) It doesn't mean that everybody's gonna do it. And like I said, I should go back and check exactly the statistics in Oregon, but I was surprised for as long as it's been there, there's not that many medically dying deaths. So maybe people feel some type of freedom having the option, but they don't necessarily choose it at the end. (1:09:44 - 1:09:57) And that's certainly a blessing. Maybe it's like the abortion issue that popped up. Yeah, and Lego, we'll finish with you, but I do want to make this comment. (1:09:58 - 1:10:20) When I was in seminary, I chose abortion. I had to pick a controversial topic for one of my classes. And I did, I chose abortion and because it was, I guess Mississippi was about to, I think it was Mississippi, the heartbeat law or something that, abortion only up until six weeks or something, 12 weeks. (1:10:20 - 1:10:48) I don't remember exactly what the law said, but there was a lot of upheaval around it. And anyway, the project for seminary was that I had to invite six people from my community to engage in this conversation with me and about the controversy and how we might apply theology of the atonement to the topic of abortion. And one of the people that I asked to be a part of my group is from Poland. (1:10:48 - 1:11:06) She lives in the United States now, but she shared an article about a mother who was dying. And I think she was in sepsis. And nobody, and I think it was due to a complication with the pregnancy. (1:11:07 - 1:11:14) I'd have to go back and read. It's been four years since I wrote that paper. But around and use that article. (1:11:15 - 1:11:52) But anyway, because there is, abortion is illegal or was at the time, she died, the baby died, like the whole thing went very, very bad. And what the article was saying is that no doctor wanted to even handle the situation because the lawsuits are so risky and afraid to lose their medical license. And so the question that came up around that is, does the law, like not passing the law, does it save lives, right? And so I actually, I'm not for abortion. (1:11:52 - 1:12:16) I'm not for medical aid in dying. But it asks a bigger theological question is, we know that Paul says, I believe it's in Romans, that the law doesn't save, right? That the one thing that saves is faith in Jesus Christ and what he has done. And so his death and our faith in that, gives us new life, even though we will die. (1:12:16 - 1:13:01) But I don't have an answer on that, but I think it's something to think about, is the passing of the law, is it a detriment, or is it something that gives people the freedom to have the choice to think about this? What we've talked about today, explore it, why do I feel like I want to do medical aid in dying? What am I afraid of? You know, God can use anything, right? He uses things meant for evil to bring good. You know, perhaps that there is a choice to have medical aid in dying. And had there not been the conversation with your family, never would have happened. (1:13:02 - 1:13:29) Like, I'm not trying to advocate, I'm just trying to say, you know, there is a bigger picture here that perhaps, you know, we could talk about, you know, with our family, with our friends, with our neighbors, you know, yeah. Yeah, Allegra, thank you for waiting. No, thank you, it's actually, you just said a lot of what I was feeling called to say. (1:13:30 - 1:14:13) So, cause I had just wanted to bring to the topic that personally, I don't believe, like, I don't think that the passing of the law is the make or break because I don't see it as, it comes back to what I was saying about control. And like, personally, I don't believe in trying to control other people through laws, whether passing or removing them or whatever. And when I've come to that from a biblical perspective, and I don't know maybe a ton of Christians that feel this way, but I have met some, and I myself feel that God has given us free will, and that he's called us to love our neighbor, not to control our neighbor. (1:14:13 - 1:14:39) And so I know there's deeper conversations to be had around how laws open up doors to things one way or the other, but I see something like a law passing as possibly being one of those things that God can work toward good because it opens the conversation. And every proponent that I've met, I was also surprised to hear of the stories of it being pressured and forced. And I wonder if that is, you know, it starts more closed and then it opens. (1:14:40 - 1:14:54) Every proponent that I've met is not trying to do harm. They're really deeply caring people that want to help others. And so again, I think the more that people feel controlled, we're not gonna let you have this option, the more they're gonna want the option. (1:14:54 - 1:15:31) And so personally, I don't get that involved in politics anyway, but I would not be trying to vote against it. I would be trying to go out in my community and have the conversations with people and give them the love and support that they need to decide with the free will that they have been given, which route they will take, and then to share, hopefully, the good news in the gospel to hopefully help them not feel that they have to make that decision. But ultimately, so I felt called to have that perspective out there and then you just kind of put it there. (1:15:31 - 1:15:41) And I don't know if I'm in the minority. I'm certainly in a minority in California, but it's odd because I bridge those two worlds. Yeah, wow. (1:15:42 - 1:15:54) Well, it's a big topic. And I think there are a lot more thinking for all of us. And, you know, yeah. (1:15:54 - 1:16:07) I mean, other than my one friend who did it, I wasn't there. I lived in New York at the time, but, you know, the story broke my heart. It did break my heart, but that she died, that she was dying, you know, broke my heart. (1:16:07 - 1:16:25) So a lot of things of our own personal experiences that may make us, you know, swing the pendulum or, you know, decide on one thing that surprises us. Who knows? Well, let's wrap up. Thank you, everybody. (1:16:26 - 1:16:40) Keep us posted, Megan, when the article comes out, or if you have more questions, please reach out to me and I'll send you this recording. Thank you so much. I've also just left my email and my number in the chat. (1:16:40 - 1:16:49) If anyone would like to reach out for any reason, I'm always open to talk. And thank you again for sharing everything. And I'll absolutely let you all know when the article comes out. (1:16:49 - 1:16:53) Okay, good. Feel better. Thanks. (1:16:53 - 1:17:04) Thank you, everybody, so much. We spent the whole cafe talking about medical aid and dying. Next week, we're doing Surprised by Hope, chapters three and four. (1:17:04 - 1:17:27) So bring a friend if you want to, and we will have the uplifting conversation about the Jewish heritage inside our faith. So good stuff. Yeah, Michelle, are you waving or do you have a little something? I was just saying thank you. (1:17:28 - 1:17:32) That was great. It was great to hear everybody's sharing too.