The Four Grief Personas with Sarah Baldwin

100:00:00.330 --> 00:00:01.790Hello, I'm Laurel Nicholson.200:00:01.970 --> 00:00:03.850I am the creator and director of the300:00:03.850 --> 00:00:06.890Death and Resurrection Doula training program and community400:00:06.890 --> 00:00:08.170on convene communities.500:00:08.770 --> 00:00:11.250And today I am joined with Sarah Baldwin600:00:11.250 --> 00:00:14.830and she has a wonderful story and a700:00:14.830 --> 00:00:17.570wonderful platform reaching people who are grieving.800:00:17.870 --> 00:00:19.290So Sarah, welcome.900:00:19.770 --> 00:00:22.210Thank you for contacting me.1000:00:22.410 --> 00:00:24.190I'm so glad we're connected and I really1100:00:24.190 --> 00:00:26.250am looking forward to our conversation today.1200:00:27.130 --> 00:00:27.750Thank you, Laurel.1300:00:27.790 --> 00:00:28.930Thank you so much for having me.1400:00:28.930 --> 00:00:30.110I'm really excited to chat.1500:00:30.870 --> 00:00:31.049Yeah.1600:00:31.250 --> 00:00:33.430So tell us a little bit about yourself.1700:00:34.150 --> 00:00:34.470Absolutely.1800:00:34.730 --> 00:00:35.830My name is Sarah Baldwin.1900:00:36.470 --> 00:00:39.170My background's actually in data and analytics.2000:00:39.990 --> 00:00:44.070In 2022, my mom was diagnosed with stage2100:00:44.070 --> 00:00:46.550four lung cancer and given kind of a2200:00:46.550 --> 00:00:49.270couple months to live, which, you know, like2300:00:49.270 --> 00:00:51.370most people that send your life into a2400:00:51.370 --> 00:00:55.410total tornado of emotions and logistics and all2500:00:55.410 --> 00:00:55.750of that.2600:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.210When the dust settled, besides saying goodbye to2700:01:00.210 --> 00:01:02.630my mom, which is in and of itself2800:01:02.630 --> 00:01:04.790a huge thing, I was left with this2900:01:04.790 --> 00:01:06.690feeling of there has to be a better3000:01:06.690 --> 00:01:10.450way for how we're helping people who experienced3100:01:10.450 --> 00:01:11.690what I had experienced.3200:01:12.350 --> 00:01:15.090And so Restfully really is a company that3300:01:15.090 --> 00:01:16.850we started out of that idea.3400:01:17.130 --> 00:01:19.050And our goal is to curate all the3500:01:19.050 --> 00:01:22.490best resources in one simple place.3600:01:22.490 --> 00:01:25.150And because of that, if your goal is3700:01:25.150 --> 00:01:27.370to make a website for people who are3800:01:27.370 --> 00:01:31.310grieving and you're also analytical and looking at3900:01:31.310 --> 00:01:34.510patterns, you pretty quickly get to this point4000:01:34.510 --> 00:01:36.890that we got to, which is we found4100:01:36.890 --> 00:01:40.210about four different ways that people grieve and4200:01:40.210 --> 00:01:42.370we set out to make resources for each4300:01:42.370 --> 00:01:42.790of them.4400:01:43.170 --> 00:01:45.050And I'm excited to talk about them, but4500:01:45.050 --> 00:01:47.110we published a paper and trademarked it and4600:01:47.110 --> 00:01:49.530the idea is called the Grief Personas.4700:01:50.610 --> 00:01:50.790Wow.4800:01:51.090 --> 00:01:51.850That's cool.4900:01:51.850 --> 00:01:53.810Now, who is we?5000:01:53.930 --> 00:01:55.310Do you have a team that works with5100:01:55.310 --> 00:01:55.510you?5200:01:55.850 --> 00:02:02.490Yeah, we have a co-founder who actually5300:02:02.490 --> 00:02:06.170had also lost her father recently and she5400:02:06.170 --> 00:02:07.710and I had worked together before.5500:02:08.190 --> 00:02:10.710And in those conversations, we were talking about5600:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.350problems that had come up for us, experiences5700:02:13.350 --> 00:02:14.310we had seen.5800:02:14.590 --> 00:02:16.590And as you do that more and more,5900:02:16.730 --> 00:02:18.330what you find is that there's kind of6000:02:18.330 --> 00:02:21.370a universality of a lot of the problems.6100:02:21.370 --> 00:02:24.610Now, it's maybe the people in my universe6200:02:24.610 --> 00:02:26.810instead of her universe, but you see these6300:02:26.810 --> 00:02:30.430patterns of friction amongst the different ways people6400:02:30.430 --> 00:02:31.310navigate grief.6500:02:31.450 --> 00:02:34.550And that's where this conversation started and we6600:02:34.550 --> 00:02:35.750kind of put our heads together.6700:02:36.030 --> 00:02:37.470And then from there, we built out a6800:02:37.470 --> 00:02:40.230team and we have just like a fantastic6900:02:40.230 --> 00:02:42.090group of people who are committed to helping7000:02:42.090 --> 00:02:44.750people, meeting them where they're at to get7100:02:44.750 --> 00:02:47.370them the resources that they need around grief.7200:02:47.510 --> 00:02:48.930And so all of that lives under our7300:02:48.930 --> 00:02:50.070website called Restfully.7400:02:50.070 --> 00:02:52.210Prior to your mom's death, did you have7500:02:52.210 --> 00:02:54.570any idea that you would be moving into7600:02:54.570 --> 00:02:55.570a field such as this?7700:02:56.390 --> 00:02:57.310No, no.7800:02:58.210 --> 00:03:00.530Answers to that is no, but I will7900:03:00.530 --> 00:03:02.770say I was always the person in my8000:03:02.770 --> 00:03:06.690family or in my network that wasn't end8100:03:06.690 --> 00:03:08.630of life or death or loss or just8200:03:08.630 --> 00:03:11.950the real deep heartache of grief in some8300:03:11.950 --> 00:03:12.370form.8400:03:12.610 --> 00:03:14.690Some people I just saw kind of naturally8500:03:14.690 --> 00:03:15.990recoil from that.8600:03:16.050 --> 00:03:17.730And I was always like a bug to8700:03:17.730 --> 00:03:18.110a light.8800:03:18.290 --> 00:03:18.950What is happening?8900:03:18.950 --> 00:03:20.310What do these people need?9000:03:20.470 --> 00:03:21.190How are they?9100:03:21.630 --> 00:03:23.670So before my mom had died, I had9200:03:23.670 --> 00:03:26.210actually been at my friend's house when her9300:03:26.210 --> 00:03:27.250grandmother had passed away.9400:03:27.330 --> 00:03:28.870I'd sat with my aunt as she was9500:03:28.870 --> 00:03:30.970dying after she had a stroke and I9600:03:30.970 --> 00:03:32.830was there when my grandparents passed away.9700:03:33.550 --> 00:03:35.410And so I think there's kind of this9800:03:35.410 --> 00:03:39.070quiet knowing, even if you didn't set out9900:03:39.070 --> 00:03:41.390to kind of commit your life to the10000:03:41.390 --> 00:03:43.250grief space, I think there's a set of10100:03:43.250 --> 00:03:45.510us who just feel I can help carry10200:03:45.510 --> 00:03:47.910a little more of a burden of this10300:03:47.910 --> 00:03:50.290and help keep people's eyes open to it.10400:03:51.070 --> 00:03:52.410I'm similar to that.10500:03:52.570 --> 00:03:55.070And I did not know prior to becoming10600:03:55.070 --> 00:03:56.510an end of life doula that that would10700:03:56.510 --> 00:03:59.350be the field for me and I am10800:03:59.350 --> 00:04:00.510a natural in it.10900:04:00.630 --> 00:04:02.530But I look back to just even my11000:04:02.530 --> 00:04:04.850childhood and my dad worked in the emergency11100:04:04.850 --> 00:04:07.690room and in the eighties, there were not11200:04:07.690 --> 00:04:09.990the privacy laws intact that we have now.11300:04:10.090 --> 00:04:11.510My mom would like take me and my11400:04:11.510 --> 00:04:13.230sister over to the emergency room and we11500:04:13.230 --> 00:04:15.570would wander around and sit in the waiting11600:04:15.570 --> 00:04:16.790room and talk to people.11700:04:16.790 --> 00:04:18.390And I did sort of have this just11800:04:18.390 --> 00:04:21.610natural thing inside of me that allowed me11900:04:21.610 --> 00:04:23.810to just be with people in these tough12000:04:23.810 --> 00:04:24.230moments.12100:04:24.470 --> 00:04:27.590And eventually that led me into ministry in12200:04:27.590 --> 00:04:28.010a church.12300:04:28.130 --> 00:04:30.930And they quickly found that everything I did12400:04:30.930 --> 00:04:32.350with funerals was exceptional.12500:04:32.570 --> 00:04:33.810They're like, wow, you're really good at this.12600:04:33.850 --> 00:04:34.630Do you have any training?12700:04:34.750 --> 00:04:35.430I said, I don't.12800:04:35.550 --> 00:04:38.430So there is, you know, for some people,12900:04:38.550 --> 00:04:41.050just a natural proclivity, I guess, to being13000:04:41.050 --> 00:04:44.990around people who are going through grief.13100:04:45.790 --> 00:04:46.710So, okay.13200:04:46.870 --> 00:04:49.750So we know your website is restfully.com.13300:04:49.990 --> 00:04:50.110Is that?13400:04:50.470 --> 00:04:52.530Restfullycare.com.13500:04:52.910 --> 00:04:56.610So your business is Restfully and you've looked13600:04:56.610 --> 00:04:59.890at the data and trademarked four different grief13700:04:59.890 --> 00:05:00.370personas.13800:05:00.790 --> 00:05:02.430Do you want to cover those one at13900:05:02.430 --> 00:05:03.790a time and tell us a little bit14000:05:03.790 --> 00:05:04.130about them?14100:05:04.410 --> 00:05:06.570The first is the open heart and that14200:05:06.570 --> 00:05:08.230tends to be kind of the one you'd14300:05:08.230 --> 00:05:10.110see on TV, the person crying by a14400:05:10.110 --> 00:05:13.470bedside, most traditional what you think of when14500:05:13.470 --> 00:05:15.990we kind of give a stereotypical grief.14600:05:16.290 --> 00:05:18.130That's what you would think is crying by14700:05:18.130 --> 00:05:21.810a bedside, turning to community and for support.14800:05:22.290 --> 00:05:24.490The second persona is what I am, the14900:05:24.490 --> 00:05:25.270steady hand.15000:05:25.550 --> 00:05:28.930And that's a persona that finds comfort in15100:05:28.930 --> 00:05:32.210handling logistics and moving the ball forward, kind15200:05:32.210 --> 00:05:35.410of coordinating things with others, often looking out15300:05:35.410 --> 00:05:37.690for others as well as grieving for themselves.15400:05:38.330 --> 00:05:40.510The third is the quiet anchor.15500:05:40.510 --> 00:05:43.330That's a persona that prefers to grieve and15600:05:43.330 --> 00:05:46.290process loss on their own timeline and in15700:05:46.290 --> 00:05:47.150their own space.15800:05:47.470 --> 00:05:49.030And then the fourth is the seeker.15900:05:49.490 --> 00:05:52.230That's the person who defaults to spiritual and16000:05:52.230 --> 00:05:55.630religious frameworks as what they're looking at through16100:05:55.630 --> 00:05:57.930grief, kind of in this, what is up16200:05:57.930 --> 00:06:00.510with this whole human condition, it can unlock16300:06:00.510 --> 00:06:02.330that part of them where they're drawn first16400:06:02.330 --> 00:06:03.230to those areas.16500:06:03.810 --> 00:06:06.250I think it's important to say while introducing16600:06:06.250 --> 00:06:08.270them that we're all a lot of them16700:06:08.270 --> 00:06:10.490and at different stages, we can be one16800:06:10.490 --> 00:06:11.510or the other.16900:06:11.730 --> 00:06:14.270So for example, I would say at work17000:06:14.270 --> 00:06:16.390when I was navigating loss, I was more17100:06:16.390 --> 00:06:18.750of the quiet anchor with my colleagues because17200:06:18.750 --> 00:06:20.670I just wanted a little space from them17300:06:20.670 --> 00:06:21.370for privacy.17400:06:22.030 --> 00:06:23.650And then, you know, maybe with my spouse,17500:06:23.650 --> 00:06:24.850I'm more of an open heart.17600:06:25.330 --> 00:06:27.750But in general, I tend to start as17700:06:27.750 --> 00:06:28.590a steady hand.17800:06:28.770 --> 00:06:30.810And I think if we're honest with ourselves,17900:06:30.810 --> 00:06:32.810we all have a bit of all of18000:06:32.810 --> 00:06:33.010them.18100:06:33.870 --> 00:06:34.870I was going to ask you that.18200:06:34.870 --> 00:06:36.990Could you move through them?18300:06:37.110 --> 00:06:41.330Because I'm thinking when I first like really18400:06:41.330 --> 00:06:44.990encountered grief and it wasn't from, well, it18500:06:44.990 --> 00:06:46.850was in relation to a death, my grandmother,18600:06:47.230 --> 00:06:51.790but her end of life woke, awakened something18700:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.730inside of me that I had been praying18800:06:54.730 --> 00:06:56.510about and looking for and healing.18900:06:56.870 --> 00:06:59.350And I became a seeker very much.19000:06:59.350 --> 00:07:02.250But I think that my time there and19100:07:02.250 --> 00:07:06.850the revelation that I had about God, and19200:07:06.850 --> 00:07:08.050I read a book at the time by19300:07:08.050 --> 00:07:10.110Tim Keller called Walking with God Through Pain19400:07:10.110 --> 00:07:10.670and Suffering.19500:07:10.750 --> 00:07:12.630So that's where my seeking led me.19600:07:12.750 --> 00:07:15.730It led me to come to understand something19700:07:15.730 --> 00:07:17.530a little bit more called a theology of19800:07:17.530 --> 00:07:18.110the cross.19900:07:18.330 --> 00:07:22.690And so that foundation for me spiritually, I20000:07:22.690 --> 00:07:25.030think has moved me into being more of20100:07:25.030 --> 00:07:25.970steady hand.20200:07:26.170 --> 00:07:26.950My dad was a doctor.20300:07:26.950 --> 00:07:29.950And so he very much was that steady20400:07:29.950 --> 00:07:31.990hand and the nurses loved it when my20500:07:31.990 --> 00:07:35.110father was on duty in the emergency room20600:07:35.110 --> 00:07:37.370because a catastrophe would come in.20700:07:37.450 --> 00:07:39.130And my dad was the one that kept20800:07:39.130 --> 00:07:42.810the emergency room calm and on task.20900:07:42.990 --> 00:07:43.990And so I know I have some of21000:07:43.990 --> 00:07:46.710that in me, but that never came out21100:07:46.710 --> 00:07:50.010until I found a foundation through seeking.21200:07:50.230 --> 00:07:51.710So I totally understand that.21300:07:51.770 --> 00:07:54.010And I imagine people who are listening can21400:07:54.010 --> 00:07:56.170think of their own story.21500:07:56.170 --> 00:07:58.910And exactly how that's working for them, too.21600:07:59.590 --> 00:08:00.470Yeah, I think that's beautiful.21700:08:00.630 --> 00:08:02.650And I think the other ones just especially21800:08:02.650 --> 00:08:05.050because I know you have a Christian tilt21900:08:05.050 --> 00:08:05.410to this.22000:08:05.650 --> 00:08:08.410I don't think if you're a seeker, I22100:08:08.410 --> 00:08:09.970don't think of those people as the better,22200:08:10.190 --> 00:08:11.210more religious people.22300:08:11.470 --> 00:08:13.850It's more which ones come up for you22400:08:13.850 --> 00:08:15.530to bring you peace at that moment.22500:08:15.770 --> 00:08:18.790I have seen so many people navigate loss22600:08:18.790 --> 00:08:20.950and having their faith be such a foundational22700:08:20.950 --> 00:08:23.270part of how they do that because it's22800:08:23.270 --> 00:08:25.010such a foundational part of who they are.22900:08:25.010 --> 00:08:27.170So it'll be part of who you are23000:08:27.170 --> 00:08:28.690when you're navigating grief.23100:08:29.170 --> 00:08:31.650And so I think it's just more like23200:08:31.650 --> 00:08:34.010the combination of the community you're in, what23300:08:34.010 --> 00:08:36.030role you need to play, what role you23400:08:36.030 --> 00:08:38.909can play, what role feels right for you23500:08:38.909 --> 00:08:39.570at that moment.23600:08:39.750 --> 00:08:41.789And they're all just super valuable.23700:08:42.390 --> 00:08:45.590Now, one word you've used with me is23800:08:45.590 --> 00:08:46.210anthropology.23900:08:46.430 --> 00:08:48.070And I love that word.24000:08:48.130 --> 00:08:49.310And I don't know if a lot of24100:08:49.310 --> 00:08:52.490people think about that we're anthropological, maybe if24200:08:52.490 --> 00:08:54.270you studied social sciences or something.24300:08:54.270 --> 00:08:56.710But I really didn't ever think of the24400:08:56.710 --> 00:08:59.110word anthropology and what it meant until I24500:08:59.110 --> 00:09:01.570did walk deeper into my faith.24600:09:01.790 --> 00:09:04.590And I think that often, and I grew24700:09:04.590 --> 00:09:06.290up in a Christian family, and I think24800:09:06.290 --> 00:09:09.010there's often strife because we think that someone's24900:09:09.010 --> 00:09:10.730turned to the Lord and so now they're25000:09:10.730 --> 00:09:11.590going to be like this.25100:09:11.790 --> 00:09:14.410But really, no matter who we are, whether25200:09:14.410 --> 00:09:18.050we call Christianity our faith or not, we25300:09:18.050 --> 00:09:20.890are human beings and we all have tendencies25400:09:20.890 --> 00:09:22.170and we have experiences.25500:09:22.170 --> 00:09:25.970And how we live out that anthropology is25600:09:25.970 --> 00:09:28.750often tense with other people in our family.25700:09:28.770 --> 00:09:30.230And then you add grief on top of25800:09:30.230 --> 00:09:33.590that and it can just be really overwhelming25900:09:33.590 --> 00:09:34.550for a family.26000:09:34.710 --> 00:09:37.270So talk a little bit about these personas26100:09:37.270 --> 00:09:42.470and how we might find healing if we26200:09:42.470 --> 00:09:44.410understand that someone grieves this way and not26300:09:44.410 --> 00:09:44.870this way.26400:09:45.690 --> 00:09:46.670Yeah, I think that's great.26500:09:46.850 --> 00:09:48.730One of the things, I couldn't agree more,26600:09:48.810 --> 00:09:50.550one of the things I talk about is26700:09:50.550 --> 00:09:52.470why right?26800:09:53.930 --> 00:09:56.250I love independent research and one of the26900:09:56.250 --> 00:09:58.710questions is, it's probably not random.27000:09:59.530 --> 00:10:02.230So why would this be the way it27100:10:02.230 --> 00:10:06.610is, either evolutionarily or by design, right?27200:10:06.810 --> 00:10:09.550And to me, if you think about a27300:10:09.550 --> 00:10:12.970group of humans convening in any place, if27400:10:12.970 --> 00:10:15.250you take it way back to when we27500:10:15.250 --> 00:10:18.090were way less connected through technology and we27600:10:18.090 --> 00:10:21.190were living in smaller communities, I do see27700:10:21.190 --> 00:10:23.450a reason why we would have a variety27800:10:23.450 --> 00:10:24.750of reactions to grief.27900:10:24.970 --> 00:10:26.710And the story I always say is if28000:10:26.710 --> 00:10:29.090we were all living in a small tribe28100:10:29.090 --> 00:10:32.770or community somewhere and some tragic loss happened28200:10:32.770 --> 00:10:35.370and we had to navigate grief, you do28300:10:35.370 --> 00:10:37.850need the person who's just open hearted and28400:10:37.850 --> 00:10:41.130feeling that loss, who's really kind of like,28500:10:41.390 --> 00:10:43.770oh my gosh, this is the, we're all28600:10:43.770 --> 00:10:44.430devastated.28700:10:44.820 --> 00:10:46.770And then you do need the person who's28800:10:46.770 --> 00:10:49.730thinking, I know, but we have to also28900:10:49.730 --> 00:10:51.990eat, so I'm going to go handle the29000:10:51.990 --> 00:10:54.090logistics and get the meals together and make29100:10:54.090 --> 00:10:56.090sure we're safe and fed and our basic29200:10:56.090 --> 00:10:56.910needs are met.29300:10:57.130 --> 00:10:59.270And then you do need the person who's29400:10:59.270 --> 00:11:01.890going to start modeling returning back to normal29500:11:01.890 --> 00:11:05.110through the quiet anchor, just a little more29600:11:05.110 --> 00:11:07.730quiet and with their own space, looking a29700:11:07.730 --> 00:11:10.610little bit more like someone who's not in29800:11:10.610 --> 00:11:11.890acute grief.29900:11:11.890 --> 00:11:13.970And then you need the person who is30000:11:13.970 --> 00:11:15.950going to be the seeker saying, what is30100:11:15.950 --> 00:11:17.510going on with this human condition?30200:11:17.690 --> 00:11:19.410Why do we have to suffer this type30300:11:19.410 --> 00:11:20.010of pain?30400:11:20.250 --> 00:11:22.250And what is the purpose of all that?30500:11:22.330 --> 00:11:24.290And one of the things within the work30600:11:24.290 --> 00:11:27.630has really opened my eyes to this idea30700:11:27.630 --> 00:11:31.750that each one of these personas is incredibly,30800:11:31.950 --> 00:11:33.970incredibly valuable and needed.30900:11:34.150 --> 00:11:37.310The healing for me in a community comes31000:11:37.310 --> 00:11:39.450from understanding that these are all very, very31100:11:39.450 --> 00:11:42.830valuable, needed personas and that if there's friction,31200:11:42.970 --> 00:11:46.170which there is often friction, that that's just31300:11:46.170 --> 00:11:49.150more of a misunderstanding than some sort of31400:11:49.150 --> 00:11:51.930huge problem or just imbalance that can never31500:11:51.930 --> 00:11:52.470be solved.31600:11:52.670 --> 00:11:55.530And so even within, sometimes I'll talk about31700:11:55.530 --> 00:11:58.170the open heart, which is the person sitting31800:11:58.170 --> 00:12:00.950by someone's bedside table, often crying, and then31900:12:00.950 --> 00:12:03.570the steady hand who's often coordinating the logistics32000:12:03.570 --> 00:12:05.450of the funeral or the doctors or the32100:12:05.450 --> 00:12:08.650hospice or dinner plans or travel for family32200:12:08.650 --> 00:12:10.770who needs to come in, those two people32300:12:10.770 --> 00:12:14.330often, often have conflict because one person thinks,32400:12:14.830 --> 00:12:16.130hey, you don't care about this person.32500:12:16.230 --> 00:12:17.650Come sit and cry with us.32600:12:17.650 --> 00:12:19.790The other person thinks you could help a32700:12:19.790 --> 00:12:19.970little.32800:12:20.070 --> 00:12:21.410Who's going to handle all the logistics?32900:12:22.150 --> 00:12:24.790And so the healing comes from understanding this33000:12:24.790 --> 00:12:25.990is just how people grieve.33100:12:26.390 --> 00:12:28.550That doesn't mean logistics should all fall on33200:12:28.550 --> 00:12:30.550one person, but it can at least start33300:12:30.550 --> 00:12:33.470the conversation and help understand that we all33400:12:33.470 --> 00:12:34.270do this differently.33500:12:34.510 --> 00:12:35.690We all do this the best way we33600:12:35.690 --> 00:12:36.090can.33700:12:36.210 --> 00:12:38.770And if we understand how someone defaults to,33800:12:38.910 --> 00:12:40.570then you can start to understand why their33900:12:40.570 --> 00:12:44.410behavior is most likely not some cruel, intended34000:12:44.410 --> 00:12:46.690to be hurtful behavior.34100:12:46.930 --> 00:12:49.670It's just what they're coming back to when34200:12:49.670 --> 00:12:50.650they need it the most.34300:12:51.570 --> 00:12:52.570Wow, that's powerful.34400:12:53.650 --> 00:12:55.890Having worked in a church, I do see34500:12:55.890 --> 00:12:58.950a lot of strife immediately when families come34600:12:58.950 --> 00:13:01.330in to plan a funeral, for instance, and34700:13:01.330 --> 00:13:03.870one family member will leave and the other34800:13:03.870 --> 00:13:06.330will say, I can't believe what my sister's34900:13:06.330 --> 00:13:08.030doing or this or that.35000:13:08.210 --> 00:13:10.150And it just, it's so painful.35100:13:10.490 --> 00:13:12.510And I love this idea that you could35200:13:12.510 --> 00:13:16.930actually honor the other person who is experiencing35300:13:16.930 --> 00:13:19.430grief in this way versus say, I think35400:13:19.430 --> 00:13:22.510you're grieving totally wrong and I'm so disappointed35500:13:22.510 --> 00:13:22.950in you.35600:13:23.070 --> 00:13:25.670And mom knew that you didn't care so35700:13:25.670 --> 00:13:26.650much or something, right?35800:13:26.730 --> 00:13:28.030You know, you could honor that person and35900:13:28.030 --> 00:13:28.870say, thank you.36000:13:28.870 --> 00:13:32.090Thank you for giving me the space to36100:13:32.090 --> 00:13:34.810grieve in the way that I need to36200:13:34.810 --> 00:13:35.350at this moment.36300:13:35.530 --> 00:13:37.710Thank you for organizing this.36400:13:37.830 --> 00:13:38.990I know this funeral is going to be36500:13:38.990 --> 00:13:39.350amazing.36600:13:40.290 --> 00:13:43.790And I just went through a funeral with36700:13:43.790 --> 00:13:46.690my family just actually last weekend, and it36800:13:46.690 --> 00:13:49.230was a little bit of an unexpected death.36900:13:49.330 --> 00:13:51.430There was a terminal illness, but death came37000:13:51.430 --> 00:13:53.310much quicker than any of us thought.37100:13:53.490 --> 00:13:55.810Like the turn was very, very quick.37200:13:55.810 --> 00:13:59.110We handled everything with such short notice.37300:13:59.390 --> 00:14:01.550I can see these personas at play.37400:14:01.890 --> 00:14:06.130And actually, thankfully, we worked pretty well together.37500:14:06.650 --> 00:14:11.570And so there's real beauty in harmony, in37600:14:11.570 --> 00:14:17.950mourning someone and celebrating them through a service37700:14:17.950 --> 00:14:19.690and bringing a community together.37800:14:19.870 --> 00:14:20.990And it can be done well.37900:14:20.990 --> 00:14:24.510And so even just having an idea in38000:14:24.510 --> 00:14:26.770our heads that someone is like this and38100:14:26.770 --> 00:14:30.090someone's like that, and getting back into God's38200:14:30.090 --> 00:14:33.450design, one thing I learned through my seeking38300:14:33.450 --> 00:14:36.410after my grandmother died was how God works38400:14:36.410 --> 00:14:37.270in our vocations.38500:14:37.650 --> 00:14:40.330And the vocation would be beyond just being38600:14:40.330 --> 00:14:42.030a doctor or being a doula or being38700:14:42.030 --> 00:14:43.870a grief specialist, but it's being a mom38800:14:43.870 --> 00:14:45.890or being a sister or being a friend38900:14:45.890 --> 00:14:46.690in the community.39000:14:46.930 --> 00:14:49.910And these vocations become masks of God.39100:14:49.910 --> 00:14:52.510It's how he ministers to his creation through39200:14:52.510 --> 00:14:55.490us as human beings, our anthropological nature.39300:14:55.770 --> 00:14:57.130He works in that.39400:14:57.290 --> 00:14:59.730And so we do need the organizer who's39500:14:59.730 --> 00:15:02.810going to get everyone, you know, to Washington,39600:15:02.970 --> 00:15:04.750D.C. from the funeral, from all around39700:15:04.750 --> 00:15:06.250the country.39800:15:06.350 --> 00:15:08.150We do need the one who's willing to39900:15:08.150 --> 00:15:11.130be quiet and sit with the widow and40000:15:11.130 --> 00:15:11.770just be there.40100:15:11.970 --> 00:15:13.450And then we do need the one who40200:15:13.450 --> 00:15:15.030writes a very meaningful obituary.40300:15:15.030 --> 00:15:17.490You know, all of those work together and40400:15:17.490 --> 00:15:22.650minister to everyone in the circle individually and40500:15:22.650 --> 00:15:24.690but also to the wider community.40600:15:25.770 --> 00:15:25.930Absolutely.40700:15:26.270 --> 00:15:30.170And I think that where that crosses the40800:15:30.170 --> 00:15:33.010bridge into very tactical, where I've seen it40900:15:33.010 --> 00:15:37.190be most effective, is when you depersonalize someone's41000:15:37.190 --> 00:15:40.870behavior by saying, hey, I see you showing41100:15:40.870 --> 00:15:42.530up as the steady hand.41200:15:42.530 --> 00:15:45.490Can I ask that you sit with us41300:15:45.490 --> 00:15:48.930for a little while and I'll help with41400:15:48.930 --> 00:15:51.110logistics so that you don't have to carry41500:15:51.110 --> 00:15:52.630that burden yourself?41600:15:53.530 --> 00:15:57.790And or I see my family, I just41700:15:57.790 --> 00:15:59.150want to let you know, I'm kind of41800:15:59.150 --> 00:16:00.990feeling the most like the quiet anchor.41900:16:01.670 --> 00:16:05.330And so there may be this planned event42000:16:05.330 --> 00:16:07.710or something you want us all to do.42100:16:07.950 --> 00:16:10.130I just don't really have the energy for42200:16:10.130 --> 00:16:10.830that today.42300:16:10.830 --> 00:16:13.470And so I think that's the gap and42400:16:13.470 --> 00:16:16.830it lets you be your authentic self while42500:16:16.830 --> 00:16:20.210also having the framework of understanding it and42600:16:20.210 --> 00:16:21.590validating it with others.42700:16:22.030 --> 00:16:24.090So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying.42800:16:24.190 --> 00:16:25.450I think it can be very healing.42900:16:26.390 --> 00:16:26.870Communicating.43000:16:28.230 --> 00:16:28.710Wow.43100:16:29.010 --> 00:16:29.970Well, this is really cool.43200:16:30.090 --> 00:16:32.050So let's go beyond the personas for a43300:16:32.050 --> 00:16:34.150minute and talk about what you're doing with43400:16:34.150 --> 00:16:34.250it.43500:16:34.390 --> 00:16:35.650It's not just information.43600:16:36.370 --> 00:16:39.270Your platform or your restfullycare.com is a43700:16:39.270 --> 00:16:41.430platform where people can actually get connected and43800:16:41.430 --> 00:16:42.290find resources.43900:16:42.710 --> 00:16:43.710Do you want to tell us a little44000:16:43.710 --> 00:16:45.010bit more about that?44100:16:45.930 --> 00:16:46.070Yeah.44200:16:46.190 --> 00:16:49.790So the idea from it is you can44300:16:49.790 --> 00:16:52.750start with getting grief, finding out your grief44400:16:52.750 --> 00:16:56.730persona, and then through that, the resources and44500:16:56.730 --> 00:16:59.350the tools evolve to meet you with what44600:16:59.350 --> 00:17:02.090is most likely going to kind of resonate44700:17:02.090 --> 00:17:03.190and what you need the most.44800:17:03.270 --> 00:17:08.150So we're very focused on actionable, tactical things44900:17:08.150 --> 00:17:08.950you can do.45000:17:08.950 --> 00:17:11.490And I was telling you this before we45100:17:11.490 --> 00:17:13.530were recording, one of the things that I45200:17:13.530 --> 00:17:16.250vividly remember when my mom was in hospice45300:17:16.250 --> 00:17:20.109and actively dying, I would say I could45400:17:20.109 --> 00:17:22.890only stomach to eat white bread with a45500:17:22.890 --> 00:17:25.630little bit of butter or white rice with45600:17:25.630 --> 00:17:26.450a little bit of butter.45700:17:27.130 --> 00:17:29.750And so we're trying to build the digital45800:17:29.750 --> 00:17:33.850version of that, which is a simple, clear,45900:17:34.110 --> 00:17:35.750do this next, then do this.46000:17:35.750 --> 00:17:39.550And just to state the obvious, what we46100:17:39.550 --> 00:17:42.370can't help with is grieving your mom, grieving46200:17:42.370 --> 00:17:46.490someone who will forever change who you are46300:17:46.490 --> 00:17:47.610and what that means.46400:17:47.730 --> 00:17:50.410And in the purest ways, it cracks us46500:17:50.410 --> 00:17:52.990open and changes us.46600:17:53.050 --> 00:17:54.910I think that's the best way I know46700:17:54.910 --> 00:17:55.550how to put it.46800:17:56.250 --> 00:17:58.710I can't take that away, but what we46900:17:58.710 --> 00:18:00.470are trying to do, and one of the47000:18:00.470 --> 00:18:02.070jokes we kind of make is when someone47100:18:02.070 --> 00:18:04.270dies, you get a hundred item to-do47200:18:04.270 --> 00:18:09.190list and 99 items are kind of not47300:18:09.190 --> 00:18:11.270that important, but have to get done.47400:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.770And not that it doesn't feel like it47500:18:14.770 --> 00:18:17.050carries the weight of what the most important47600:18:17.050 --> 00:18:19.130thing is, which is to grieve the person47700:18:19.130 --> 00:18:22.110you love, to really sit with what that47800:18:22.110 --> 00:18:25.970means in a real, free of conflict, not47900:18:25.970 --> 00:18:28.470mad at your sister for how she behaved48000:18:28.470 --> 00:18:31.410or your uncle for how he behaved, just48100:18:31.410 --> 00:18:34.330what does it mean in the example of48200:18:34.330 --> 00:18:36.710me, like what does it actually mean to48300:18:36.710 --> 00:18:38.010say goodbye to your mom?48400:18:38.390 --> 00:18:40.290What does that change to your relationship?48500:18:40.510 --> 00:18:42.030What does that change to who you are?48600:18:42.130 --> 00:18:44.690How does that change who you are, how48700:18:44.690 --> 00:18:46.110you show up and things like that?48800:18:46.930 --> 00:18:48.230That's the most personal thing.48900:18:48.270 --> 00:18:50.950We can give some advice and things like49000:18:50.950 --> 00:18:52.790we have a journaling tool that has different49100:18:52.790 --> 00:18:54.350prompts to help you do that.49200:18:54.350 --> 00:18:56.990We have some frameworks for kind of how49300:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.870to reconnect after there's conflict within families, because49400:18:59.870 --> 00:19:02.390that's a major theme we see, so we49500:19:02.390 --> 00:19:03.810can help with a little of it, but49600:19:03.810 --> 00:19:06.770the real kind of big thing of grieving,49700:19:07.170 --> 00:19:09.370we just try to help with everything else49800:19:09.370 --> 00:19:11.130so it clears away and your heart can49900:19:11.130 --> 00:19:12.670focus on the one thing it needs to50000:19:12.670 --> 00:19:12.930focus.50100:19:13.070 --> 00:19:16.850So we're working on helping get logistics for50200:19:16.850 --> 00:19:17.450funerals.50300:19:17.590 --> 00:19:19.630We're working on how to help people pre50400:19:19.630 --> 00:19:22.650-plan things, how to make sure legal is50500:19:22.650 --> 00:19:25.610organized, how to find support resources that you50600:19:25.610 --> 00:19:25.990need.50700:19:26.090 --> 00:19:27.530My goal for this is to keep it50800:19:27.530 --> 00:19:31.150as simple but clear what to do next.50900:19:31.610 --> 00:19:34.050And it's a perpetual process, but that's what51000:19:34.050 --> 00:19:34.890we're focused on.51100:19:35.550 --> 00:19:38.050Well, we were chatting earlier as we were51200:19:38.050 --> 00:19:39.830preparing for this that, I mean, there's no51300:19:39.830 --> 00:19:41.490way to avoid technology, right?51400:19:41.670 --> 00:19:43.410And so instead, you're like, well, how can51500:19:43.410 --> 00:19:44.430technology help us?51600:19:44.430 --> 00:19:46.390And I was sharing with you, there's really51700:19:46.390 --> 00:19:49.150a market out there now growing through this51800:19:49.150 --> 00:19:51.390death-positive movement where end-of-life doulas51900:19:51.390 --> 00:19:53.270have become more familiar.52000:19:53.650 --> 00:19:55.610And I love the movement and how practical52100:19:55.610 --> 00:19:56.330it is.52200:19:56.430 --> 00:20:01.270You know, spiritually and theologically, I appreciate my52300:20:01.270 --> 00:20:04.590training, but there is no doubt that through52400:20:04.590 --> 00:20:06.770a death-positive movement, we're talking about death52500:20:06.770 --> 00:20:07.030again.52600:20:07.150 --> 00:20:10.370We're realizing that, wow, we have not considered52700:20:10.370 --> 00:20:13.190all that we need to consider about talking52800:20:13.190 --> 00:20:15.910about death before someone gets sick, making some52900:20:15.910 --> 00:20:18.190plans, having conversations with our families.53000:20:18.530 --> 00:20:19.410I mean, I didn't even know what an53100:20:19.410 --> 00:20:21.710advance directive was before I trained to be53200:20:21.710 --> 00:20:22.630an end-of-life doula.53300:20:23.290 --> 00:20:24.590And I'm telling you, you know, I grew53400:20:24.590 --> 00:20:27.450up in a home where medicine and death53500:20:27.450 --> 00:20:30.350were part of our dinner table conversations often.53600:20:30.830 --> 00:20:35.750So, and just recalling on the top of53700:20:35.750 --> 00:20:37.010my head, but I think it's about a53800:20:37.010 --> 00:20:39.110quarter of the people in the United States53900:20:39.110 --> 00:20:42.650report having either written an advance directive out,54000:20:43.330 --> 00:20:45.230talked with their family members, or talked with54100:20:45.230 --> 00:20:45.690their doctors.54200:20:45.690 --> 00:20:47.670And so there is a need.54300:20:48.190 --> 00:20:50.970And these things can be done well through54400:20:50.970 --> 00:20:51.570technology.54500:20:51.830 --> 00:20:53.310And people such as me and you and54600:20:53.310 --> 00:20:56.510other people, you know, getting connected in this54700:20:56.510 --> 00:20:59.110field are going out there to say, hey,54800:20:59.450 --> 00:21:00.230we can do it.54900:21:00.350 --> 00:21:02.170And let me provide you with a platform.55000:21:02.290 --> 00:21:03.470Let me provide you with a way to55100:21:03.470 --> 00:21:03.930get started.55200:21:04.190 --> 00:21:06.250So this is great.55300:21:07.250 --> 00:21:09.030And as I said, there's a real market55400:21:09.030 --> 00:21:09.510for it.55500:21:09.550 --> 00:21:12.330And finding a way to bring people in55600:21:12.330 --> 00:21:14.250to use your tools is our goal.55700:21:14.250 --> 00:21:17.050And so if somebody, you know, is interested55800:21:17.050 --> 00:21:18.890in Restfully, how would they get started with55900:21:18.890 --> 00:21:19.070you?56000:21:19.730 --> 00:21:19.830Yeah.56100:21:19.930 --> 00:21:22.990So if the grief personas resonate with you,56200:21:23.090 --> 00:21:25.270if you're interested in learning more, we have56300:21:25.270 --> 00:21:27.690all of that at RestfullyCare.com.56400:21:28.010 --> 00:21:29.990I think to your point, Laurel, it's perfect,56500:21:30.210 --> 00:21:32.750which is these grief personas also kind of56600:21:32.750 --> 00:21:35.170are how you tend to show up for56700:21:35.170 --> 00:21:35.890end-of-life.56800:21:36.350 --> 00:21:38.950So we have tools for if you're a56900:21:38.950 --> 00:21:41.430steady hand, that's probably the family member who's57000:21:41.430 --> 00:21:44.950saying, guys, we need to get our logistics57100:21:44.950 --> 00:21:46.430and legal documents organized.57200:21:46.650 --> 00:21:47.750Let's get this ahead.57300:21:47.850 --> 00:21:49.110Let's get ahead for that.57400:21:49.210 --> 00:21:51.630Whereas someone who's the quiet anchor might be57500:21:51.630 --> 00:21:54.690saying, why do we have to talk about57600:21:54.690 --> 00:21:55.730end-of-life?57700:21:55.930 --> 00:21:57.330No one's died, right?57800:21:57.510 --> 00:21:59.990And so the balance between those two, the57900:21:59.990 --> 00:22:02.130dance between those two, we try to help58000:22:02.130 --> 00:22:04.350whichever persona you are.58100:22:04.850 --> 00:22:06.870What is the persona if you're planning a58200:22:06.870 --> 00:22:07.110funeral?58300:22:07.110 --> 00:22:09.770What comes up for those personas in funeral58400:22:09.770 --> 00:22:10.170planning?58500:22:10.570 --> 00:22:12.130What matters to most people?58600:22:12.270 --> 00:22:14.810So it's all based on that grief persona58700:22:14.810 --> 00:22:17.150framework and really helping you understand.58800:22:17.490 --> 00:22:19.090So the website has a quiz.58900:22:20.030 --> 00:22:22.590Interestingly, 4% of people get a tie59000:22:22.590 --> 00:22:23.650on that.59100:22:23.850 --> 00:22:27.550But most people, we've had 3,500 people59200:22:27.550 --> 00:22:28.990take it since November.59300:22:29.830 --> 00:22:32.930Most people are one clear standout.59400:22:32.930 --> 00:22:35.770If there are some, most people also have59500:22:35.770 --> 00:22:38.090one clear standout with kind of a secondary59600:22:38.090 --> 00:22:40.710close second, and then the others are a59700:22:40.710 --> 00:22:41.270little less.59800:22:42.410 --> 00:22:45.110Well, taking that quiz from our website, or59900:22:45.110 --> 00:22:47.170you can go directly to the quiz from60000:22:47.170 --> 00:22:51.870griefpersonas.com, that unlocks kind of custom resources60100:22:51.870 --> 00:22:52.710on the website.60200:22:52.970 --> 00:22:55.230Then we can help you find those kinds60300:22:55.230 --> 00:22:55.810of things.60400:22:56.070 --> 00:22:57.470And so, yeah.60500:22:58.050 --> 00:23:00.850So you're not, when I say you, I'm60600:23:00.850 --> 00:23:01.450talking about a person.60700:23:02.060 --> 00:23:04.570Just signing up to your website and trying60800:23:04.570 --> 00:23:05.310to figure out yourself.60900:23:05.490 --> 00:23:06.730It's really, there's a journey.61000:23:07.830 --> 00:23:11.670And healing is a goal always for everybody.61100:23:11.870 --> 00:23:14.390It's healing and preparation.61200:23:15.030 --> 00:23:16.130So this is really, really cool.61300:23:16.350 --> 00:23:19.970And I'm going to venture to say you're61400:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.010doing it a little differently than most others,61500:23:22.110 --> 00:23:22.310right?61600:23:22.430 --> 00:23:27.790So you found something that is special and61700:23:27.790 --> 00:23:30.730you're making a way for people to engage,61800:23:31.070 --> 00:23:33.710not just because there's a checklist and I61900:23:33.710 --> 00:23:36.110know we need to do this, but because62000:23:36.110 --> 00:23:39.130we actually have feelings and we're real people62100:23:39.130 --> 00:23:41.830and death is not, it's not something we62200:23:41.830 --> 00:23:42.310can avoid.62300:23:42.890 --> 00:23:45.890And so how can we show up and62400:23:45.890 --> 00:23:50.290get started with our authentic self, which may62500:23:50.290 --> 00:23:53.530go through, through, you know, a change, a62600:23:53.530 --> 00:23:53.870growth.62700:23:54.550 --> 00:23:55.930And it would be really interesting.62800:23:55.930 --> 00:23:57.650I don't know if you have, because you're,62900:23:57.650 --> 00:24:01.650you know, new like I am, but if63000:24:01.650 --> 00:24:04.530you could somehow get the data on how63100:24:04.530 --> 00:24:09.230people have changed through using restfullycare.com.63200:24:09.310 --> 00:24:11.390Like, okay, well, when my, you know, when63300:24:11.390 --> 00:24:13.670my mom received a terminal illness, then we63400:24:13.670 --> 00:24:15.330got started and we did this and then,63500:24:15.790 --> 00:24:17.910you know, follow that person at some point63600:24:17.910 --> 00:24:20.990on, you know, another experience they have with63700:24:20.990 --> 00:24:21.530end of life.63800:24:21.530 --> 00:24:26.190And perhaps, you know, how, how, how that63900:24:26.190 --> 00:24:27.630went for them and, you know, all that64000:24:27.630 --> 00:24:30.410they've learned through using, using your, your personas.64100:24:31.430 --> 00:24:32.330Yeah, absolutely.64200:24:32.610 --> 00:24:35.810And, and some of the inbound messages that64300:24:35.810 --> 00:24:39.730unsolicited feedback that we've received will just crack64400:24:39.730 --> 00:24:40.510me open.64500:24:40.950 --> 00:24:44.050And it really was intended for these moments64600:24:44.050 --> 00:24:45.930of conflict for the person who's going to64700:24:45.930 --> 00:24:47.690go through what I went through in the64800:24:47.690 --> 00:24:48.110future.64900:24:48.110 --> 00:24:51.370And what I think I wasn't anticipating were65000:24:51.370 --> 00:24:55.170the people who said, this feels like it's65100:24:55.170 --> 00:24:55.570healing.65200:24:55.610 --> 00:24:57.930This thing that happened 20 years ago with65300:24:57.930 --> 00:25:01.590my siblings when our uncle died and we65400:25:01.590 --> 00:25:02.710were so mad at each other.65500:25:02.810 --> 00:25:04.110And it's never really been the same.65600:25:04.270 --> 00:25:06.390And I'm starting to understand that they were65700:25:06.390 --> 00:25:08.510behaving that way for a very specific reason.65800:25:08.730 --> 00:25:11.030And that was very much in conflict with65900:25:11.030 --> 00:25:12.070the way I was behaving.66000:25:12.610 --> 00:25:15.010And so it also has had this very66100:25:15.010 --> 00:25:17.970retroactive healing, which I think is why it's66200:25:17.970 --> 00:25:20.950gotten this momentum that's gotten people kind of66300:25:20.950 --> 00:25:23.210proactively reaching out to us, asking how they66400:25:23.210 --> 00:25:24.850can help and incorporate it more.66500:25:24.970 --> 00:25:27.450It's been really, really beautiful to see.66600:25:28.510 --> 00:25:30.750That, that makes me think of this one66700:25:30.750 --> 00:25:33.970particular client who I worked for, for their66800:25:33.970 --> 00:25:35.630family, not for a very long time because66900:25:35.630 --> 00:25:37.610the man was at the very end of67000:25:37.610 --> 00:25:37.850life.67100:25:37.850 --> 00:25:39.490And when she said to me, she said,67200:25:39.690 --> 00:25:41.730I just don't want to do what we67300:25:41.730 --> 00:25:42.410did with my aunt.67400:25:43.070 --> 00:25:44.930And she's like, just help me do it67500:25:44.930 --> 00:25:45.250differently.67600:25:45.390 --> 00:25:45.570Right?67700:25:45.610 --> 00:25:47.350So people, people who have been through an67800:25:47.350 --> 00:25:50.650experience that didn't go well, another reason that67900:25:50.650 --> 00:25:52.890we have the momentum in the death positive68000:25:52.890 --> 00:25:55.090movement, as people say, we want to do68100:25:55.090 --> 00:25:55.290better.68200:25:55.390 --> 00:25:56.850We know we can do better for the68300:25:56.850 --> 00:25:59.770people that are dying, for ourselves, for our68400:25:59.770 --> 00:26:00.230families.68500:26:00.790 --> 00:26:05.650And just seeing such broken hearts and how68600:26:05.650 --> 00:26:10.770we can be devastated, not just from someone68700:26:10.770 --> 00:26:11.190dying.68800:26:11.330 --> 00:26:13.070I mean, that is so painful in itself,68900:26:13.070 --> 00:26:15.350but all the things that go around that69000:26:15.350 --> 00:26:18.350create pain or watching that person suffer more69100:26:18.350 --> 00:26:19.990than they needed to because there was not69200:26:19.990 --> 00:26:21.790planning and there was not conversation.69300:26:21.950 --> 00:26:26.430So there's so much healing capability here, not69400:26:26.430 --> 00:26:28.110just for the future, but, but from the69500:26:28.110 --> 00:26:30.570past and people, people want that.69600:26:31.290 --> 00:26:31.890Yeah, absolutely.69700:26:32.090 --> 00:26:34.230And I sometimes think of grief as kind69800:26:34.230 --> 00:26:37.570of like electricity where it flows through and69900:26:37.570 --> 00:26:41.010it can get stuck in these conflict areas70000:26:41.010 --> 00:26:43.570where two people are fighting.70100:26:43.930 --> 00:26:47.090And you're as an outsider, who's not the70200:26:47.090 --> 00:26:49.530one, I'm sure this happens to you because70300:26:49.530 --> 00:26:51.290you work with so many families as an70400:26:51.290 --> 00:26:54.930outsider observing who's not the person in pain.70500:26:54.930 --> 00:26:56.270And you see these people who are in70600:26:56.270 --> 00:26:58.230very deep, acute pain.70700:26:58.590 --> 00:27:00.950You just realize that some of this grief,70800:27:01.170 --> 00:27:03.950this energy of grief got stuck on this70900:27:03.950 --> 00:27:04.810one point.71000:27:05.490 --> 00:27:09.770Should we have had the funeral on this71100:27:09.770 --> 00:27:10.670day or this day?71200:27:10.790 --> 00:27:13.150And you're like, that doesn't feel like the71300:27:13.150 --> 00:27:17.530amount of energy behind that decision feels large71400:27:17.530 --> 00:27:19.470compared to the loss that you're navigating.71500:27:19.890 --> 00:27:22.590As an outsider, that's just like a stuck71600:27:22.590 --> 00:27:23.070thing.71700:27:23.070 --> 00:27:25.090And so I think the more we can71800:27:25.090 --> 00:27:27.330kind of have frameworks that help explain what's71900:27:27.330 --> 00:27:30.010happening and help people let the grief flow72000:27:30.010 --> 00:27:31.930through them and change them the way it72100:27:31.930 --> 00:27:33.650does and will, whether we want it to72200:27:33.650 --> 00:27:36.270or not, I think that's how this can,72300:27:36.510 --> 00:27:38.330it can help both the future and the72400:27:38.330 --> 00:27:38.730past.72500:27:39.230 --> 00:27:43.370How about using your personas and your tools72600:27:43.370 --> 00:27:47.030on your platform for grief that's not exactly72700:27:47.030 --> 00:27:49.070related to the death of someone?72800:27:49.070 --> 00:27:52.530And I'm thinking just personally about my life72900:27:52.530 --> 00:27:55.950and probably within the past six months to73000:27:55.950 --> 00:27:57.810a year, it's come to my mind so73100:27:57.810 --> 00:27:59.570many times, I'm like, I'm grieving.73200:27:59.810 --> 00:28:01.390I do have people who have died close73300:28:01.390 --> 00:28:02.730to me in my life, but it's not73400:28:02.730 --> 00:28:04.530that right now that I'm grieving.73500:28:04.670 --> 00:28:05.910It's some other things in my life.73600:28:06.030 --> 00:28:07.550My plans aren't going the way that I73700:28:07.550 --> 00:28:08.130want them to.73800:28:08.250 --> 00:28:10.990Or this relationship isn't as healthy as I73900:28:10.990 --> 00:28:11.650want it to be.74000:28:11.710 --> 00:28:13.490And sometimes I'm like, what is it?74100:28:13.790 --> 00:28:15.650And then I just like, I am grieving.74200:28:15.650 --> 00:28:20.210And so could your site, your platform be74300:28:20.210 --> 00:28:22.570useful to someone in a season like that?74400:28:23.290 --> 00:28:23.530Absolutely.74500:28:23.870 --> 00:28:25.730And I think it's a great question.74600:28:25.970 --> 00:28:28.690We really built it for grief of end74700:28:28.690 --> 00:28:33.430of life because it's such a heartbreaking, no74800:28:33.430 --> 00:28:35.450one wants to go there kind of thing,74900:28:35.510 --> 00:28:38.830except for the crazy people like us, I75000:28:38.830 --> 00:28:39.070guess.75100:28:39.630 --> 00:28:42.170But I think that it applies everywhere.75200:28:42.690 --> 00:28:45.810The joke warning that I give is once75300:28:45.810 --> 00:28:48.370you deeply understand it and deeply understand it,75400:28:48.410 --> 00:28:50.550I mean, spend an hour thinking about it.75500:28:50.630 --> 00:28:53.410You'll start to go through life and see75600:28:53.410 --> 00:28:55.810people in these persona.75700:28:56.510 --> 00:28:57.750You won't need a quiz.75800:28:57.870 --> 00:29:00.230You'll just very clearly see, okay, this person75900:29:00.230 --> 00:29:01.290obviously behaves that way.76000:29:01.410 --> 00:29:02.550This person behaves that way.76100:29:02.770 --> 00:29:05.670I think of it all the time because,76200:29:06.170 --> 00:29:08.810you know, there's a, I don't know the76300:29:08.810 --> 00:29:10.370perfect definition of grief.76400:29:10.650 --> 00:29:12.730And so I yield to other people, but76500:29:12.730 --> 00:29:15.550life's kind of heartbreaking, right?76600:29:15.590 --> 00:29:17.050It's the most beautiful thing.76700:29:17.170 --> 00:29:18.530It's the most special.76800:29:18.710 --> 00:29:22.470I feel so lucky to have a life.76900:29:23.350 --> 00:29:26.270But there is a heartbreaking, even watching, I77000:29:26.270 --> 00:29:28.330was talking to my sisters, watching kids grow77100:29:28.330 --> 00:29:29.970up is just a heartbreak.77200:29:30.010 --> 00:29:31.650You get into these routines and then you77300:29:31.650 --> 00:29:33.750have to break the routines because life grows77400:29:33.750 --> 00:29:35.270up and moves on.77500:29:35.270 --> 00:29:38.190And so just the process of growing up77600:29:38.190 --> 00:29:39.990and living life is pretty heartbreaking.77700:29:40.250 --> 00:29:42.950And so one of the things that hit77800:29:42.950 --> 00:29:45.910me after my mom died, and so I77900:29:45.910 --> 00:29:49.170was in my 30s when that happened.78000:29:49.450 --> 00:29:54.370And I just had this sense that this78100:29:54.370 --> 00:29:55.830isn't just a one-off.78200:29:55.950 --> 00:29:58.170There is a sense that as you get78300:29:58.170 --> 00:30:02.870older, you're going to experience more grief.78400:30:03.190 --> 00:30:05.790And I'm never not going to be grieving78500:30:05.790 --> 00:30:06.390my mom.78600:30:06.570 --> 00:30:10.090So you just accumulate these different heartbreaks and78700:30:10.090 --> 00:30:14.530grief and the agony of that while looking78800:30:14.530 --> 00:30:16.750for the beauty in life and cherishing what78900:30:16.750 --> 00:30:17.730we have with each other.79000:30:17.930 --> 00:30:19.610And it's why kind of meeting new people79100:30:19.610 --> 00:30:22.710like you is such a gift and open79200:30:22.710 --> 00:30:23.870-hearted people like you.79300:30:23.970 --> 00:30:26.050And I assume your listeners, if they're taking79400:30:26.050 --> 00:30:29.170time to listen to such topics, is the79500:30:29.170 --> 00:30:31.910beauty, is the reward to dealing with the79600:30:31.910 --> 00:30:32.270grief.79700:30:32.270 --> 00:30:33.950And so I think it's all just one,79800:30:34.430 --> 00:30:36.650we kind of focus in one area, but79900:30:36.650 --> 00:30:38.410I think it's all part of this human80000:30:38.410 --> 00:30:42.530condition that is, for me, like end of80100:30:42.530 --> 00:30:45.570life or deep loss is the last thing80200:30:45.570 --> 00:30:46.830that we all have in common.80300:30:47.490 --> 00:30:51.750And so it has this unifying beauty to80400:30:51.750 --> 00:30:54.750it that I think it serves beyond the80500:30:54.750 --> 00:30:56.110scope of end of life.80600:30:57.030 --> 00:30:57.650You're right.80700:30:57.650 --> 00:31:00.610And I mean, if anyone got through this80800:31:00.610 --> 00:31:04.530life without hurting, they're lying.80900:31:05.610 --> 00:31:07.450Or if they say they got through this81000:31:07.450 --> 00:31:09.330life and it's really been a breeze, they're81100:31:09.330 --> 00:31:09.770lying.81200:31:09.930 --> 00:31:13.450If we can look at another person as81300:31:13.450 --> 00:31:16.890someone who has pain, it can make us81400:31:16.890 --> 00:31:19.530more compassionate towards that person.81500:31:19.950 --> 00:31:23.170And I've spent my time in church ministry,81600:31:23.270 --> 00:31:25.030also leading a healing ministry.81700:31:25.910 --> 00:31:29.370And it'd be so great if everything we81800:31:29.370 --> 00:31:32.730wanted, we wanted healing from cancer.81900:31:32.970 --> 00:31:34.410Either we got everything we prayed for, it'd82000:31:34.410 --> 00:31:35.730be great, but we know that's not the82100:31:35.730 --> 00:31:36.130reality.82200:31:36.910 --> 00:31:39.590And sometimes that may happen.82300:31:39.730 --> 00:31:42.230The Lord may answer your prayer, but you're82400:31:42.230 --> 00:31:43.530still going to die at some point.82500:31:44.010 --> 00:31:47.290And that's not funny, but it's true, right?82600:31:47.430 --> 00:31:49.210And so we can't get so wrapped up82700:31:49.210 --> 00:31:51.830in that every single one of our prayers82800:31:51.830 --> 00:31:52.790is going to evade death.82900:31:52.850 --> 00:31:54.090It's just not true.83000:31:54.090 --> 00:31:57.110What I found so powerful in healing ministry83100:31:57.110 --> 00:32:02.130is not miracles if they happen, is that83200:32:02.130 --> 00:32:05.930we can meet another person in their grief83300:32:05.930 --> 00:32:10.050and cry for them or feel with them83400:32:10.050 --> 00:32:11.210their grieving.83500:32:11.530 --> 00:32:14.790And from the Christian perspective, find where does83600:32:14.790 --> 00:32:16.970that connect us with Christ and what He83700:32:16.970 --> 00:32:18.430has done on our behalf.83800:32:18.550 --> 00:32:21.790He was the grieving man, the suffering servant.83900:32:21.790 --> 00:32:24.830I mean, if anyone knows grief, it's Jesus.84000:32:24.990 --> 00:32:27.470And we can see that through history as84100:32:27.470 --> 00:32:28.730we look into scripture.84200:32:29.090 --> 00:32:31.070It's not that we need to move beyond84300:32:31.070 --> 00:32:33.830hope that God will heal a disease and84400:32:33.830 --> 00:32:35.170we have more time with that person.84500:32:35.270 --> 00:32:38.930And He often blesses lives way beyond what84600:32:38.930 --> 00:32:41.070medical science says will happen.84700:32:41.190 --> 00:32:42.450So we know that to be true.84800:32:42.930 --> 00:32:44.310We also know it to be true that84900:32:44.310 --> 00:32:45.690there is going to be a time where85000:32:45.690 --> 00:32:47.890we're going to grieve the life of someone85100:32:47.890 --> 00:32:49.810we love or grieve that it's our life85200:32:49.810 --> 00:32:51.050that's ending.85300:32:51.050 --> 00:32:54.670And shying away from it, not wanting to85400:32:54.670 --> 00:32:56.650talk about it doesn't help anybody.85500:32:57.210 --> 00:32:58.330Yeah, absolutely.85600:32:58.930 --> 00:33:01.250I think kind of to your point, you've85700:33:01.250 --> 00:33:02.850obviously done a ton of work on this.85800:33:02.930 --> 00:33:04.330I'm not trying to say that grief personas85900:33:04.330 --> 00:33:06.830are the answer, but if we have a86000:33:06.830 --> 00:33:12.030limited time with someone and understanding that person86100:33:12.030 --> 00:33:14.790more gives you not just more time, but86200:33:14.790 --> 00:33:17.090more meaningful time with people.86300:33:17.090 --> 00:33:20.210And so there is this kind of validation86400:33:20.210 --> 00:33:22.890of understanding someone more, having more time with86500:33:22.890 --> 00:33:24.970them without conflict, having more time where you86600:33:24.970 --> 00:33:26.450can see kind of the soul of who86700:33:26.450 --> 00:33:28.910they are is the same as having more86800:33:28.910 --> 00:33:29.670time with someone.86900:33:30.090 --> 00:33:31.950Having the same amount of time, but you're87000:33:31.950 --> 00:33:34.790confused by the person and you're frustrated by87100:33:34.790 --> 00:33:37.750the person or you're kind of disrespectful to87200:33:37.750 --> 00:33:39.950how they are because they just don't make87300:33:39.950 --> 00:33:40.850any sense to you.87400:33:41.310 --> 00:33:43.610Even if the number of minutes with the87500:33:43.610 --> 00:33:46.210person are the same, those two paths, one87600:33:46.210 --> 00:33:48.170feels like more and more valuable time and87700:33:48.170 --> 00:33:51.970one feels like less concrete time.87800:33:52.430 --> 00:33:53.630So I think that's part of it.87900:33:54.390 --> 00:33:57.050Enhance your grief when that person's no longer88000:33:57.050 --> 00:33:57.390here.88100:33:57.910 --> 00:33:59.490So this is a little bit out of88200:33:59.490 --> 00:34:01.090order, and I have to admit that I'm88300:34:01.090 --> 00:34:03.030just beginning to understand more and more about88400:34:03.030 --> 00:34:05.330the personas and your site and how it88500:34:05.330 --> 00:34:06.510all works together.88600:34:06.770 --> 00:34:08.230Let's talk about your site for someone who's88700:34:08.230 --> 00:34:10.429actually got the terminal illness, not just the88800:34:10.429 --> 00:34:13.690family members who are navigating the funeral.88900:34:13.690 --> 00:34:17.130Let's say, for instance, a young mother has89000:34:17.130 --> 00:34:20.230breast cancer and it is terminal.89100:34:20.409 --> 00:34:22.690On the outside, we want that person to89200:34:22.690 --> 00:34:24.690grieve a certain way or we're not used89300:34:24.690 --> 00:34:25.570to the way that they're grieving.89400:34:25.690 --> 00:34:27.290That's not what we think we'll see, right?89500:34:28.370 --> 00:34:30.830Talk a little bit maybe more about how89600:34:30.830 --> 00:34:33.449grief personas could help someone who's actually facing89700:34:33.449 --> 00:34:36.730the illness and those who are looking in89800:34:36.730 --> 00:34:39.070as family and helpers.89900:34:39.630 --> 00:34:39.929Sure.90000:34:40.510 --> 00:34:44.489I would say, first of all, anything that90100:34:44.489 --> 00:34:47.510can help understand how the people around you90200:34:47.510 --> 00:34:49.469and how you are is the goal of90300:34:49.469 --> 00:34:49.730this.90400:34:49.969 --> 00:34:52.770So a dream scenario for me would be,90500:34:53.030 --> 00:34:54.730and we've had some people who've kind of90600:34:54.730 --> 00:34:57.170brought this up through after the person has90700:34:57.170 --> 00:35:00.470passed away, but a scenario where someone receives90800:35:00.470 --> 00:35:03.590a terminal diagnosis, they understand their grief persona,90900:35:03.870 --> 00:35:06.810and they say, okay, this is likely how91000:35:06.810 --> 00:35:08.250I'm processing this.91100:35:08.250 --> 00:35:11.110And then, again, I am not a medical91200:35:11.110 --> 00:35:12.790doctor or therapist, anything like that.91300:35:12.970 --> 00:35:15.470Like, I encourage those people to find support91400:35:15.470 --> 00:35:17.350from people like you who are trained to91500:35:17.350 --> 00:35:19.390walk with them through that path.91600:35:19.570 --> 00:35:21.590But my hope is that they start to91700:35:21.590 --> 00:35:24.010understand this person's going to be more like91800:35:24.010 --> 00:35:25.590this, this person's going to be more like91900:35:25.590 --> 00:35:28.290this, and that their understanding of the fabric92000:35:28.290 --> 00:35:30.130of who we are and how we behave92100:35:30.130 --> 00:35:33.410is a framework that they can help for92200:35:33.410 --> 00:35:36.430themselves as well, which is, I see you're92300:35:36.430 --> 00:35:38.630the steady hand.92400:35:39.010 --> 00:35:42.470Honestly, I understand you're needing to handle logistics,92500:35:42.470 --> 00:35:45.130but I could just use someone to distract92600:35:45.130 --> 00:35:48.990me and talk to me about my days92700:35:48.990 --> 00:35:51.470in college and my memories of that or92800:35:51.470 --> 00:35:52.970what it was like to have a baby92900:35:52.970 --> 00:35:55.190or my childhood or anything.93000:35:55.670 --> 00:35:58.690That could be a very natural way to93100:35:58.690 --> 00:36:00.070start having the conversations.93200:36:00.070 --> 00:36:02.070And I think also within the care team,93300:36:02.190 --> 00:36:04.770you'll start to see different doctors and nurses93400:36:04.770 --> 00:36:07.690and aides and medical professionals, you start to93500:36:07.690 --> 00:36:09.050see that's how they are.93600:36:09.210 --> 00:36:11.150And so if there's this framework of, hey,93700:36:11.230 --> 00:36:14.030I could use a little more this or93800:36:14.030 --> 00:36:16.310that, it can start to be the way93900:36:16.310 --> 00:36:17.110you talk about it.94000:36:17.170 --> 00:36:18.790Because one of the things, I don't know94100:36:18.790 --> 00:36:20.090if this is the same experience, but one94200:36:20.090 --> 00:36:21.490of the things that I've heard from other94300:36:21.490 --> 00:36:23.630people who've walked this path with other people94400:36:23.630 --> 00:36:27.550who are dying is there's just like, I94500:36:27.550 --> 00:36:28.270don't know what I need.94600:36:28.330 --> 00:36:29.210I don't know what I want.94700:36:29.210 --> 00:36:31.590I don't even know where to start.94800:36:31.770 --> 00:36:34.510And then this slowly kind of chipping away94900:36:34.510 --> 00:36:36.490at, okay, what is this all about?95000:36:36.590 --> 00:36:37.190What is happening?95100:36:37.530 --> 00:36:38.390Where do I stand?95200:36:38.550 --> 00:36:40.410What do I need to do between now95300:36:40.410 --> 00:36:40.870and then?95400:36:41.330 --> 00:36:44.150And I think that's such the gift of95500:36:44.150 --> 00:36:48.890a doula because they're literally a guide walking95600:36:48.890 --> 00:36:51.270you on a path that you know you're95700:36:51.270 --> 00:36:52.930going, you might as well have someone guide95800:36:52.930 --> 00:36:53.170you.95900:36:53.170 --> 00:36:57.310So I'm hoping that combination between training doulas,96000:36:57.550 --> 00:37:00.790because that's been a large group of who's96100:37:00.790 --> 00:37:01.190come through.96200:37:01.310 --> 00:37:02.510We've trained a couple hundred.96300:37:03.810 --> 00:37:05.790If we can keep doing that, then they96400:37:05.790 --> 00:37:08.810can keep giving these tools to their people.96500:37:09.250 --> 00:37:12.710Because, I mean, what a place to show96600:37:12.710 --> 00:37:14.130up for other humans.96700:37:15.270 --> 00:37:16.550Well, I was just thinking that.96800:37:16.550 --> 00:37:21.490How could your tools translate over to the96900:37:21.490 --> 00:37:23.210end-of-life doula work that we do97000:37:23.210 --> 00:37:23.970as believers?97100:37:24.270 --> 00:37:28.850And my definition of what is a death97200:37:28.850 --> 00:37:30.770and resurrection doula, that's what I've named my97300:37:30.770 --> 00:37:34.170training program, because we are focused beyond just97400:37:34.170 --> 00:37:35.770the death to what is our hope.97500:37:36.030 --> 00:37:37.810You have your person who's dying, and they're97600:37:37.810 --> 00:37:38.270the center.97700:37:38.490 --> 00:37:40.610But there's communications, what we've been talking about97800:37:40.610 --> 00:37:43.130today, with how do we communicate well to97900:37:43.130 --> 00:37:45.090make sure our needs are met with our98000:37:45.090 --> 00:37:47.750grief and that we're loving with the other98100:37:47.750 --> 00:37:49.350person and working together.98200:37:49.630 --> 00:37:52.110But that kind of communication style is important98300:37:52.110 --> 00:37:54.430for end-of-life doulas, and not just98400:37:54.430 --> 00:37:56.970between the family members and the person who's98500:37:56.970 --> 00:37:58.630dying, but also the wider community.98600:37:59.030 --> 00:38:00.950And that includes doctors and nurses.98700:38:01.250 --> 00:38:04.050And the hospice team is an integral part98800:38:04.050 --> 00:38:05.970of the end-of-life process.98900:38:05.970 --> 00:38:08.710So, I just see this as being such99000:38:08.710 --> 00:38:11.970a valuable tool for us as leaders of99100:38:11.970 --> 00:38:14.250good communication, as our work is end-of99200:38:14.250 --> 00:38:14.670-life doulas.99300:38:14.930 --> 00:38:17.890And I just see that you could use99400:38:17.890 --> 00:38:20.150these with your faith.99500:38:20.230 --> 00:38:21.450You could use them really strongly with your99600:38:21.450 --> 00:38:21.650faith.99700:38:21.770 --> 00:38:24.650And one thing we desire to do as99800:38:24.650 --> 00:38:26.190Christians is communicate well.99900:38:26.270 --> 00:38:29.390So, we don't have animosity and discomfort with100000:38:29.390 --> 00:38:30.950one another, but we want to be very100100:38:30.950 --> 00:38:34.330open, and we want to be present and100200:38:34.330 --> 00:38:34.770be hopeful.100300:38:34.770 --> 00:38:36.290So, these are great tools.100400:38:36.430 --> 00:38:38.670Now, do you have, on your site, a100500:38:38.670 --> 00:38:43.890place for professionals who are helping families and100600:38:43.890 --> 00:38:46.050someone who's dying navigate this process?100700:38:46.230 --> 00:38:47.930Or is that something that might happen in100800:38:47.930 --> 00:38:48.270the future?100900:38:48.870 --> 00:38:51.590Yeah, on our homepage, kind of towards the101000:38:51.590 --> 00:38:54.490bottom, it says something like, interested in being101100:38:54.490 --> 00:38:57.590certified, or are you a professional working in101200:38:57.590 --> 00:38:57.970the space?101300:38:58.070 --> 00:38:59.490Something like that, specifically.101400:39:00.190 --> 00:39:00.730Okay, cool.101500:39:00.750 --> 00:39:02.530So, let's say you've trained a few hundred101600:39:02.530 --> 00:39:02.830doulas.101700:39:02.890 --> 00:39:03.570That's what you're talking about.101800:39:03.570 --> 00:39:05.190You have something like that.101900:39:05.330 --> 00:39:05.490Okay.102000:39:05.950 --> 00:39:06.630Well, this is great.102100:39:06.790 --> 00:39:08.910That's what I do love about the practicality102200:39:08.910 --> 00:39:10.650of the Death Positive Movement, is that we're102300:39:10.650 --> 00:39:13.990all getting connected and saying, wow, we don't102400:39:13.990 --> 00:39:15.270know how to do this, but wait, here's102500:39:15.270 --> 00:39:16.090a great resource.102600:39:16.470 --> 00:39:18.210And you're one of those.102700:39:18.510 --> 00:39:18.990Thank you.102800:39:19.010 --> 00:39:20.250Great resources, Sarah.102900:39:20.750 --> 00:39:22.170Yeah, Laurel, thank you so much.103000:39:22.250 --> 00:39:23.810I can't thank you enough.103100:39:23.890 --> 00:39:25.150It's so sweet of you to even let103200:39:25.150 --> 00:39:25.930me talk about it.103300:39:25.950 --> 00:39:26.690So, I appreciate it.103400:39:27.030 --> 00:39:27.390Absolutely.103500:39:27.770 --> 00:39:31.510And I, just to everyone who's listening, thank103600:39:31.510 --> 00:39:31.810you.103700:39:32.110 --> 00:39:35.230And go follow Sarah on her social media103800:39:35.230 --> 00:39:35.670channels.103900:39:35.790 --> 00:39:37.730I'll have them listed in the description.104000:39:38.130 --> 00:39:40.630Follow me on my channels, which are also104100:39:40.630 --> 00:39:41.650listed on the description.104200:39:42.030 --> 00:39:43.450So, thank you.104300:39:43.510 --> 00:39:46.130And I hope people listening today get signed104400:39:46.130 --> 00:39:51.810up with grief personas, whether it's through initiating104500:39:51.810 --> 00:39:55.230something more formal and training, or if it's104600:39:55.230 --> 00:39:58.050just by going and peeking and taking a104700:39:58.050 --> 00:40:00.190stab at figuring out a little bit more104800:40:00.190 --> 00:40:00.690about yourself.104900:40:01.190 --> 00:40:02.350Yeah, thanks so much.105000:40:02.430 --> 00:40:03.230I really appreciate it.