From Womb to Tomb: A Christian Vision for Doula Care

(0:00 - 0:24) Okay, all right, so welcome. It is Monday, September 8th, and I am here, I'm Laurel Nicholson, creator and founder of the Death and Resurrection Doula Training Program. And this is Brittany, who is the creator and founder of a Christian birth doula training program called the Biblical Birth School. (0:25 - 0:46) And Brittany and I met through social media and made contact, actually joined her training program. So I'm training to be a birth doula. I'm not exactly sure what that will look like for me in the future, but I'm at this point really enjoying it as a continuing education opportunity. (0:46 - 0:59) And I'm learning a lot, not just about birth. I have two children that are 18 and 21. So it's been a while since I've been pregnant and had babies, but I'm learning a lot. (1:01 - 1:28) But I'm also really learning a lot more about the doula movement that I knew just from training to be an end-of-life doula. And so I've been thinking to myself and mentioning to Brittany, let's connect. Let's connect in something a little more formal and see if we can talk more about it because it's important to fully understand the doula movement if you're a birth doula or an end-of-life doula. (1:29 - 1:58) And particularly important as Christians. And one thing we'll discuss today is that the secular movement in both realms of doula care are very, it's very opposite of our faith. And so supporting doulas, no matter what part of life they are serving, I think we can be stronger as if we support one another and understand what's going on. (1:58 - 2:10) So all that being said, Brittany, you wanna start by just giving a bit more of an introduction to you and your program? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I'm Brittany. (2:10 - 2:17) I am a childbirth educator and doula. I'm a mom of seven. That little number seven right here with me. (2:17 - 2:57) And I started the biblical birth school in early 2022. Yeah, for those reasons, Laurel, I was in a secular training myself becoming a birth professional, realizing how little space there was for Christians to not only learn from a biblical worldview, but just to have a community where there were other Christians that had the same worldview. Because I realized, and I'm sure you know, in death, birth, the idea of birth and what goes on around birth is really embedded in your worldview. (2:57 - 3:10) So you can't extract that from the conversation. So I really wanted there to be this space for biblical study of birth. And that's where the biblical birth school was born. (3:11 - 3:45) Wait, how long ago did you start it? I'm saying even like the conceptualization of it, starting to create your training program. Yeah, well, I really started as a professional in 2020. And it was 2021 that the biblical birth school really started to come together as ideas and just kind of like this awakening of like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize how secular, how anti-God the birth world is, birth education in general was. (3:45 - 4:09) I didn't realize that until I was in it myself. And then like realizing there has to be a better way for Christians to become birth professionals and to have continuing education and to do this work without having to be steeped in this like anti-God agenda. That's, I'm glad you said that anti-God. (4:09 - 4:20) I was searching for the phrase to use and that's it. That's it, exactly. It's not even, I mean, anti-Christian covers it, but anti-God, I mean, it is like there is no one above us. (4:20 - 4:33) There is no sovereignty over this. There's no, yeah, there's no sovereignty that we're... Right, exactly. Yeah, so that's interesting. (4:33 - 4:58) I didn't really know your timeline actually until I just asked, but I'm about the same. I trained at the end of 2019 and then with COVID, everything was halted pretty much. I was hoping that being a pandemic that I might be able to help some families, but the word end of life or the term end of life doula was not really well-known. (4:58 - 5:10) People didn't know what I was talking about. You weren't able to go out and educate people other than remotely. So I had nothing happen in 2020, but I did about 2021. (5:11 - 5:57) I was in seminary, finishing up a master's course and started to see, wow, I think this could be a ministry for the church. And so whether it's birth or death, both of us, and I know this because I started your training program, we really ground our theology in Genesis and those first couple of chapters of Genesis. So for a Christian end of life doula, understanding why we die is the locus of the theological portion, but for birth, understanding what God has said to Eve and why we experience pain in childbirth, there's a lot of misconceptions around that. (5:57 - 6:06) There really are. It's interesting how we got to go back to those first three chapters in Genesis pretty much for everything, right? Yes. But there are so many misconceptions. (6:07 - 6:34) A lot of people think that we are cursed with painful childbirth, which is not what the scriptures say, although it does talk about pain and this new kind of suffering because of the fall. But it's important that we really understand what it's saying, especially in Hebrew, because those Hebrew words really mean something. It's not just like this in general, we are cursed for all time because a curse is a big deal. (6:35 - 6:43) And as Christians, we are blessed, especially in Christ. We don't have a curse on us anymore. Yeah. (6:44 - 7:16) Well, it's very powerful. And just as in end of life and birth, having a plan is a really good idea and being educated is a really good idea. So doulas on both ends of life, birth and death can be amazing companions for moms and then husbands who are supporting them, but also individuals and families at the end of the life. (7:16 - 7:29) So the model for doulas as Christians is beautiful and it works. And it's grounded in real theology that matters. It changes our experience. (7:31 - 7:37) So that is really, really great. Well, I'm loving your program. I know I've told you that, but- Yeah, I'm so glad. (7:37 - 7:42) Yeah, I love to hear that. I recommend it. I know, as a trainer, it's hard. (7:42 - 7:46) You're like, I hope everybody likes it. Yeah, it is. Exactly, right. (7:47 - 7:52) Every day you're like, I hope this, I put this out there to the world. I hope it's helping people. Yeah. (7:52 - 8:29) The feedback is always good. So I'm gonna move on to discussing the, well, we hit on it a little bit, but as I trained in the end of life doula movement, I was shocked at how secular anti-God, it's actually progressed that way even more in the past five years since I've trained. I really feel like I've seen an intensity on how secular it is. (8:30 - 9:15) And I think from talking to you a little bit, I've learned, and from the training that you provide, that the, like for instance, abortion doulas, right? That is something that term has started probably, that I started to hear about maybe in the past three years, and is a, I don't know the answer to this, a full spectrum doula. When people consider themselves to be a full spectrum doula, our mind might think birth and death, which I'm considering that for my vocation, but full spectrum actually is the phrase used to include abortion as well. Is that right? Right, yep. (9:15 - 9:47) And a lot of people just don't know the history and that is just vital to understand. So it really started in 1994, if you can believe that, with a group of feminists in Chicago who coined the term reproductive justice, okay? So it really started in the 90s with this idea of, it was activism. It was these women coming together saying, well, we are going to work towards this goal of helping women. (9:48 - 9:54) They can be pregnant. They don't have to be pregnant. They can have whatever pregnant experience they wanna have, including abortion. (9:54 - 10:22) In the early 2000s, there was a group like of three women who started what was called the abortion doula project in New York, and they were called abortion doulas. And that was the main thing that differentiated them, so that they supported women who were having abortions, but then they started helping and supporting women, and women were coming to them who said, I had a miscarriage. I had another type of pregnancy experience that wasn't abortion. (10:23 - 10:46) So they ended up changing their name from abortion doulas to full-spectrum doulas, and changing the name of their organization to the doula project instead of the abortion doula project. And so a lot of people don't know that it was born from that, and that is what full-spectrum doula typically means. The bedrock of that phrase was abortions. (10:47 - 11:04) You support abortions. And so I hear Christians using this phrase all the time, thinking that they're talking about, well, I support preconception, pregnancy, and birth, and postpartum. That's kind of what people think it means in the birth world. (11:05 - 11:15) Like, it did not come from that. That's not what the original phrase meant. So I believe not to use that phrase at all. (11:16 - 11:29) I think we should come up with a different phrase that means it crosses over the different life stages, but doesn't include abortion. I think we should come up with a new phrase. Well, I think so too. (11:29 - 12:01) And in the end-of-life doula realm, I think it's going to become even more and more important on what we call ourselves. And right now, there's a little bit of an argument between should you even call yourself a death doula? And when I first started training, I'm like, yeah, death. We got to say the word death, right? Like, it's important because we say he passed, or she passed, or we're a little bit afraid to talk about death. (12:01 - 12:30) And so a lot of doulas, even secular doulas, felt really strong about being a death doula. And then, they started making a point that the funeral homes were upset because death doulas were stepping over into the regulations of the funeral directors without having a funeral director license. So kind of leaders of the secular movement started pulling back and said, okay, don't call yourself a death doula. (12:31 - 13:02) Be an end-of-life doula or an EOLD because death doulas have been associated with home funerals before. And there's a lot of regulations that anybody doing a home funeral, a family, has to follow. And so there's kind of been discussion there, but as doulas, as end-of-life doulas began to get involved in medical aid and dying more and more, I really want to begin to differentiate myself from that, right? Is that people can, there's articles everywhere. (13:02 - 13:17) Well, your end-of-life doula will help you, will advocate for you to get your medical aid in dying. They'll mix the solution. Well, if someone says to me or anyone that I train, I don't want an end-of-life doula because that's what I think of. (13:18 - 14:07) So our language is important for us to feel confident and value what we do, as well as for those in our communities to say, I'm confident that I'm hiring this, this, or this. So we will, let's continue to talk about that and make sure that people are certain of what they're getting. So one thing I didn't know until I took your program is I get this question or I see it around in discussion boards and the doula movement that we don't want to be regulated because one of the reasons that we, or will we ever be regulated? That's the question. (14:07 - 14:36) But for the most part, people don't want to be regulated because one of the reasons that end-of-life doulas are becoming popular is because hospice is regulated and that regulation limits the time hospice can spend with a family in their home. And putting regulations on doulas will also cause some limitations. And then they say, well, watch out because the birth doula movement is regulated. (14:37 - 15:12) And so I really didn't know the answer to that until I took your program and I learned a lot. So there is some insurance reimbursement for doulas, but it's not like a big umbrella that I believe doulas, particularly Christian birth doulas need to worry about or that our practices are going to be stimmy because we've got regulation coming in. And I don't believe that end-of-life doulas, if that becomes, if we become regulated, I don't think it will really be a problem. (15:12 - 15:54) So do you want to explain a little bit more? Sure, yeah, as a whole, the birth doula profession is not regulated as a whole, but there are 12 states plus Washington DC where they have programs where you can register with the state in order to basically be a provider and accept insurance, Medicaid from the state and be able to accept that from your clients and get reimbursed. Now, when you go down that path of accepting insurance, then you do have some regulations. They tell you, okay, you have to have this particular certification. (15:54 - 16:07) You have to have this particular training, this many hours. And maybe the training that you took wasn't good enough or doesn't measure up to their particular standards or whatever. So you have to do whatever they tell you to do. (16:07 - 16:25) And that's kind of the part where you're regulated. You may have to take a secular training that you don't want to take, right? Something like that. So it's not every state, but there are other, there are every states, like some states are on the path to that. (16:25 - 16:41) So there may be more than 12 states at some point, maybe all the states at some point will have a program like that. I know doulas are worried about these increasing regulations. Maybe it doesn't stop at insurance and it continues with other things. (16:41 - 17:00) But right now I don't feel like it's an enormous threat or anything. And did you, I think I heard in your training that some doulas have said the rate, like reimbursement is slow. Like it's not just, oh wow, this is amazing. (17:00 - 17:15) Now I'm finally able to get paid for my services. Yeah, some doulas I know specifically don't take that route simply because there are so many hoops and there's so much paperwork and reimbursement is really slow. And it's just not even worth it for some. (17:16 - 17:47) Right, right. So this leads me to something that I probably should have asked earlier, but like, why is a birth, having a birth doula, hiring a birth doula, what value does it bring to the birth process? And I'll just give my two cents for a sec and then have you open it up some more. But in an end of life doula practice, we wanna bring the best quality of life at end of life, help be a part of that. (17:48 - 18:28) And what I've learned so far in your training is having a birth doula could potentially shorten the duration of labor, make things go more smoothly. And that without that extra level of support, that may not be as, it may not happen as smoothly, less cesarean sections happen when a birth doula is involved. So we're getting just a little snapshot at a companion, a servant, entering into this time and a mother's life. (18:28 - 18:54) So maybe tell us a little bit more of the value of having a birth doula present. Absolutely, yeah, they have actually done research on how a birth doula helps and they found lower rates of interventions, lower cesareans and higher maternal satisfaction in the birth itself and things like that, very important. So yeah, the doula is really there for the mother. (18:55 - 19:27) The doctor's really there for the baby, making sure that the baby is born healthy and not, I mean, they're there, the doctor's there to make sure the mom gets through healthy as well, but the doctors, they're not really there to support the mother emotionally. The doulas can do that. They can just be there for the mother, encouraging her, giving her massages, helping her make the best choices along the way and just being like this physical presence to help her get through the labor and birth process. (19:29 - 20:16) So just like an end of life doula, birth doulas, we must go out and we must educate our communities as well as educate medical providers about what we're doing because sometimes, I mean, I can say I had same OB-GYN for both of my children in Colorado, which is a very holistic kind of a state and my OB was from New York City. I loved him, I had a good experience, but he was not keen on birth doulas and a lot of women in Colorado did not want to have him as their OB because he didn't want birth doulas. And so educating physicians is an important part. (20:16 - 21:00) They may not understand or, I don't know what his reasoning was, I didn't ask, but he, it may, and even hospitals, like it can be, I've not found it in the end of life experience. Usually they'll say, oh, you're a doula, what's that? Or, oh, I've heard of it, I've never met one, but I've never had any resistance at all to being a part of the family of who's coming by as visitors. How about that in the birth field? Is it pretty easy for doulas to go be a part of a hospital birth? It's not always, really depending on the hospital. (21:01 - 21:36) Like you said, some doctors are resistant either because they just don't understand what they do. Unfortunately, a lot of doctors in hospitals are resistant because they've had bad experiences with birth doulas, which is why the training is so important. Having birth doulas going into a hospital who know how to be respectful and work with the medical team, a lot of birth doulas get into birth work because they're like, they kind of have this idea that we're against medical providers and we wanna do things our own way. (21:38 - 22:11) And so doctors have this idea, well, they're just gonna get in the way, they're gonna keep me from doing my job, right? Which unfortunately, doctors do have experiences with doulas who have done that, which they should not have. Doulas are not bodyguards is what we often say to each other in the profession because some have taken up the idea that that's what we do. We're gonna protect the mother from these interventions that she doesn't want, but it really does not work like that. (22:11 - 22:42) And so it only hurts the profession as a whole, right? And so we have to try to combat that and be a good professional in the community who works with others well to try to change the tide of some of those bad experiences. Right. When I had my daughter, I made a friend through like, we had the same due date so we kept having the same appointment schedule, right? And so we got to be friends and ended up having lunch a couple of times. (22:42 - 23:28) And so I had my baby a couple of days early and then they induced her, I was like 10 days early and then they induced her because she had some high blood pressure, like there were some big risks were beginning to happen. So they induced her and I think it was a, I don't know, 36 hour labor or something. And they ended up doing a C-section, but I remember I went by to visit her and I had had a completely different kind of labor experience, but I know that the doctor had stayed with her like most of the time, which is probably, I don't know if that's common or not, but I'm thinking, I'm just thinking on her experience and she was a single mom, so she was not married. (23:28 - 24:06) And just, I think there was some, yeah, just knowing how long that had taken that like the companionship for anybody, it just makes a big difference. It really does. And so now as end of life doulas, we, like I have worked with families that someone died in a hospital, but, and I shouldn't say our goal is to get people to consider having their end of life at home, but hospice is the main provider of end of life care for families. (24:06 - 24:25) So oftentimes our work is going to be in the home and increasingly so, because that trend of dying at home is coming back. But in the birth world, a lot of people are going to probably continue to have their babies in the hospital. But I just want to make this clarification. (24:25 - 24:53) If someone does want a home birth, a doula is not, does not become the provider of any care. Right, that's another thing that we have to be careful about and I educate my students about is you cannot, you can be held liable if you try to step in and provide medical care, you can get in trouble for that. So it's always kind of this balance of home birth is great. (24:53 - 25:20) I've had four of them and having doulas at a home birth is even better. It's wonderful, but you have to make sure that you know your boundaries, you know what you're there to do and what you're not there to do and just really stick to that no matter what. Yeah, well that, so we've covered, there's a lot of overlap between the roles of birth doula and end of life doula, particularly in the Christian faith. (25:20 - 25:43) You know, we go to the fundamentals of our faith to, you know, consider our experience and why we have children, you know, why we die. And the scripture is full of encouragement and grace. And so there's a lot of overlap, but there's also a lot of differences. (25:44 - 26:03) And I think probably that, you know, a doula at the end of life, you know, where the scope of practice I believe is comparable for birth doulas and end of life doulas. You know, we're non-medical practitioners. I mean, you know, period. (26:05 - 26:24) But the end of life experience is a lot different than the birth experience. But then there is some overlap in that. I, you know, remember when I was working with this mother who was dying and she and I were actually basically the same age, both 43 at the time. (26:25 - 26:46) And there was a moment where she realized she wasn't getting out of bed again. And so the nurse came in to help her and she said, you know, I'm so scared. And there was something that kind of just came into my thought about, well, leaving, you know, your earthly body, there is some similarity to delivery. (26:46 - 27:33) You know, like we're waiting for the new, the new thing, right? And so I was able to, you know, being a mother and having, you know, her as a mother, we were able to talk a little bit about the expectation of something that we don't know exactly what is gonna happen, but something's happening. And so there are some beautiful parallels between birth and the end of life, actually, you know, with the physical experience. But I guess what I'm trying to get to here is in both of them, there's gonna be waiting and, you know, pain management is definitely something that is going to be really, really important, both birth and the end of life. (27:33 - 28:12) But, you know, maybe the end of life, you know, well, there is a grief, right? That we don't have most likely at birth, you know? So, you know, everybody feels, you know, their own call to something, perhaps they do feel called to both, which is something I would love to see more of. I do know a few people in this program have some birth doula experience. Oftentimes people are open to learning more about the end of life doula role because they've either had a birth doula or their daughter has had a birth doula or they know of one in the community. (28:13 - 28:53) So there's a lot here, I think, to, you know, to start with a good foundation of Christians recognizing one another, no matter what part of life you're working in. But just curious, you know, what crosses your mind in support for one another, building a bigger Christian awareness around the importance of the Christian faith at both points? Absolutely, yeah. I think something we both do, I think a big part of our professions is addressing fear. (28:53 - 29:46) I think that's probably one of the biggest things because women have so much fear going into birth and to labor, there's this unknown for both of us, right? Of, you know, I mean, it would seem kind of silly to say it's unknown going into birth because you know what's supposed to happen on the other side of birth, you're supposed to have a baby, right? But there is so much unknown on how that, what that actually feels like, what that actually looks like, how long is it gonna take, you know? What is it gonna feel like? And so I think that's neat. Both of our professions really address that so much and that all of that has to go back to the Bible. We can't ignore that worldview like we were talking about, especially with death, even more so, it has to go back to what you believe and the worldview that you have. (29:48 - 30:28) Yes, and you know, maybe a birth doula meeting an end of life doula, you know, it was a great, you know, having a, find one in your town, you know, have lunch, you know, hear about their experience. And I also think, you know, capitalizing on, it's not easy to be a servant, right? You know, this role, it is a role that requires humility, particularly because there is medical professionals and, you know, you might get bumped a little bit because they're not used to what you're doing or they've had a bad experience before. But, you know, just the encouragement. (30:29 - 30:58) I think encouragement is something that is really important when you're a doula because it's work that is irreplaceable. I mean, families I've served say, I don't know what we would have done, you know, had we not found you. I mean, that's the answer we want, right? Is that you didn't come in and take over, but you added an element that would not have been there that actually really, really changes the experience. (30:59 - 31:06) And it's not something that gets a big broadcast all of the time. It really doesn't. Yeah, exactly. (31:07 - 31:13) When you do a good job, they'll say I couldn't have done it without you. You know, I don't know what I would have done. Yeah. (31:13 - 31:23) Right, yeah. Well, thanks for engaging in this conversation with me. And when I post this online, I will, you know, put a link up. (31:23 - 31:36) But just as a reminder, your training program is the Biblical Birth School and it's biblicalbirthschool.com. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, that's right. And say, is Brittany McCardle? Is McCardle? That's right. (31:36 - 31:40) Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Well, I recommend it wholeheartedly. (31:40 - 31:59) I'm really enjoying it. I am not getting through this as quick as I thought I would because I'm just, you know, putting some of my extra time to growing my own training program. But it does help me kind of, you know, identify with people who come in to start a training program. (31:59 - 32:07) And you think, oh, I'm gonna get it done. And then things come up. And so I just want to encourage people, when your schedule changes, you know, God calls you to this. (32:08 - 32:37) He will see it through. So we can enter it in with that piece of faith and anticipation as well. So I'm just going to invite you, if you want to turn on your camera and your microphone, I would love it because it would be great to see you and see if you have any questions around doula care as a whole, particularly to Brittany, since she's here today with her biblical birth school. (32:42 - 33:14) Has anybody had experience with having a birth doula, either personally for yourself? I'm not you, Peter, but maybe your wife or? We adopted. You adopted. I, like I said, my doctor wasn't, you know, I don't know what he would have done if I had said, I'm gonna have a birth doula, but I never asked him, but I know that he was bent the other way. (33:14 - 33:37) But I do know women who have had birth doulas and I know women who have had home births and they're a lot of, you know, I've heard a lot of good things, so. So Laurel, can you hear me? Yes. I know my video's turned off, but can, what is the cost per hour? Is it similar to a death doula? That's a great question. (33:38 - 34:10) Let me start by saying I have gone back and forth and I thought about this for, you know, birth doula costs. I've gone back and forth on, you know, do I have a set rate or am I hourly? And currently I'm hourly with the option to, you know, buy packages. When people say to me, what can I expect to spend with you? I tell people it usually ranges between one and $3,000, 1,000 and 3,000. (34:11 - 34:23) So I don't know what Brittany thinks. Yeah, it's so interesting. I think we've touched on this, you and me, Laurel, before birth doulas don't typically sell like hourly rates, don't have hourly rates. (34:23 - 34:35) They just have packages. Postpartum doulas usually have hourly rates, which is interesting. But for a birth doula, it's usually between one and $3,000, but you're only buying a package. (34:35 - 34:52) So it's typically you get two hours to spend with them in the pregnancy time. So that'll be like two sessions of one hour each where you get to go through your birth plan with your doula. And then they're on call for you starting at 37 weeks of pregnancy. (34:52 - 35:09) And then they'll be with you however long the birth is, however long or short the birth is, it doesn't change the price. You usually pay it upfront and paid in full before they go into labor. So the timing really doesn't change the price at all. (35:10 - 35:15) Yeah. Okay. It's like insurance then, right? Yeah. (35:16 - 35:24) I see your question, Peter. I'm gonna answer that. I just wanna say quickly, the reason I went to hourly is because I felt like you just never knew. (35:25 - 35:49) It was really hard to determine I'm gonna be here this amount of hours because like one day I was there six hours, right? And so I found that that worked better. I've also found like what Brittany is saying, you do wanna get paid at least something in advance. And I had a guy that was paying me monthly depending on how many hours I worked. (35:49 - 36:08) He paid me a deposit. And then once he used that up just monthly, cause it was, I worked for him for nine months. So a $3,000 would probably be more like a nine, six to nine months versus I've worked for someone for 10 days, right? And so that's kind of, but I will share my rate cause they're posted on my website. (36:08 - 36:23) But this to say, he died. And right before he, like a week before he died, he was still very coherent. And I said, I think I want you to go ahead and like prepay me for next month. (36:24 - 36:36) And he said, no, not a problem. I spoke with my executor and he just, he's good, give him the bill. But having worked with the man, I knew very well that his estate was gonna be locked. (36:36 - 37:01) And so it took me almost, I'd say between four and six months to get that payment. And so, I didn't wanna be difficult to the man because he had a lot of difficulties going on, but it's really good to pay, get paid in advance as much as possible. Packages can offer a little discount. (37:02 - 37:26) So kind of what I've started doing with my packages is, you pay 10 hours upfront and I give you a free hour. And then I've also staggered my rates a little bit. I now have a sitting fee because I've noticed in my time with families that they would rather have a sitter spend a long time than have a doula that's a little bit more expensive. (37:26 - 37:49) So if I'm really there to sit, to take some notes, cause I've watched sitters, they have a notebook, you know, what happened at this hour and this hour, like respite relief, I have a lower rate. And, but, you know, I thought, well, I can have a consulting rate. If you're talking about advanced directives, you know, I'm this, but then doula care is this. (37:49 - 38:08) But oftentimes the consulting and the doula care get all mixed up in one thing because you enter in and they don't have anything planned for end of life. So I've really just done my best to stagger my rates. They're available on my website, Laurelnicholson.com. I have a family rate of consulting, 75 an hour. (38:09 - 38:19) Individual rate of consulting is 55. And then when I really move into the doula care, 45. And if I'm just sitting, it's 30. (38:20 - 38:44) And I found that works well, but it is a little confusing. I have a package that kind of combines some doula hours with some sitting, thinking that, you know, maybe people would, if they bought it in a package, they're more likely to take the respite help. So I just try to, you know, look back at my past, you know, jobs. (38:44 - 39:08) What have people needed from me has, you know, pinpointing your rate is hard because you know, you're valuable. You know, you're working very hard. You know, people may be struggling financially because they've also got a night nurse in, you know, there's a lot of expenses at the end of life, at the end of life, but you want to remember, you're very, very valuable. (39:08 - 39:24) And the work is hard. You may be helping families work through a real crisis over what someone wants their mother to have and their mother didn't want that. And there was no advanced directive and another sibling wants something else. (39:24 - 39:33) I know mom said, this is what she wants. It can be difficult. And a counselor would make 75 to $200 an hour. (39:33 - 39:45) So I believe you should be very, very fair to yourself as well as to the family. So staggering rates might be a good way to do that. Thank you. (39:46 - 40:05) And I like the idea that you have a separate sitting rate because I have like for vigils, it's, if I'm just there, maybe they have me give like a med now and then. I can't as a nurse, but it's like, I'm not doing the full spectrum. So I was like doing like, okay, having a lower fee for just the sitting side. (40:06 - 40:39) Yeah, that came about for me the last winter because a family hired me to do devotions. And I'm like, I can't charge that to do a devotional. You could have a neighbor come over for free, right? And so just reading the scripture is, I kind of incorporate into my sitting fee, but legacy projects, family conversations, that kind of stuff, helping comfort care plans, that kind of stuff, I am a little higher. (40:39 - 40:52) And then if it's advanced directives, really making a, not an estate plan like a lawyer would, but checking things off. Do you have this? Do you have this? And it takes some elevated skill. I have a higher rate. (40:53 - 40:57) Yeah. Lisa, great to see you. I'm glad you're here today. (40:58 - 41:14) I was just gonna share, thank you, Brittany, and your little baby is darling. When you held her, I just wanna hug that baby. But my daughter is a birth doula, and then my sister-in-law is a midwife, and she has her own company over in San Luis Obispo, California. (41:14 - 41:30) That's where I'm from. And we've actually had many of our grandchildren born in our home, which is a crack up because my husband will go, what the heck? There's a pool in the living room or whatever. So that's kind of been a part of our world here. (41:30 - 41:41) And we appreciate it so much. And our midwife, the one that has birthed our grandchildren made all the difference. And I believe she saved one of the lives of our children. (41:41 - 41:50) So our daughter and our grandbaby. So it's a blessing that you are there on that end. So thank you for sharing. (41:51 - 41:58) Oh, thank you for sharing that. It is, it's life-changing. And I'm so glad you've got to experience that as well. (41:58 - 42:37) I love that. I've heard the phrase that a house is not really a home until somebody's been born and died in it, right? Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, particularly in this time, that a birth doula and a death doula as a believer is really, really important because care has become so secularized on, you know, both throughout life, right? Our care, you know, praying with your physician is not something that everybody gets the opportunity to do. (42:37 - 43:15) My dad was a physician and he mentioned he's not living anymore, but he mentioned to me that he saw the change through his years as a physician is that, you know, offering to pray with a patient was not accepted like it used to be or the hospital didn't like it, right? And we've seen as chains and chaplaincy, you know, chaplains cannot proselytize. They, you know, help a person, you know, explore the faith that they have. And, you know, I've limited understanding, but I would think that 25 years ago, these limitations weren't in place so much. (43:15 - 43:57) But the, I just wanna say, you know, there's so much confusion, right, around birth, right? Abortion rates are so high, so much confusion, you know, medically and dying is increasing, the numbers of people who are advocating for that increasing. So having the truth, the word of God available for discussion through a Christian who understands the birth process, the end of life process is ultimately valuable. And I think that, you know, if we keep going, we're really gonna see, you know, history, I hope. (43:57 - 44:10) We can look back and see a history that there was actually a change for the body of Christ. People were brought into the body of Christ through this humble work of being a doula. I love that, absolutely. (44:10 - 44:40) I agree with that. Yeah, good. Well, any other last minute questions? Do you wanna take a minute to say about yourself? Like Peter, you wanna start and maybe share a little bit about what you do? Well, for me, I'm a second career registered nurse, mainly focused in hospice and palliative care, six out of the nine years. (44:40 - 44:53) I'm also an end of life doula. And like you, Laurel, a follower of Christ Jesus, believing in the triune God. I was just reading your document on your professional ethics from that PDF file, so that was well written. (44:55 - 45:35) I didn't know about your school when I got my certification through the International Life Movement, but I think yours is the only faith, Christian faith-based school out there. And hopefully it's okay that I pop in on these as I'm able, because as I participate in other venues, like trying to learn and grow, there's so much of a non-Christian worldview that sometimes I have to ask myself, do I even try to participate? Because you have to be careful what you read and watch, my opinion only. And so it does make it challenging at times. (45:35 - 45:47) So that's why I come here, just because this is, I believe you offer a very good resource. And Brittany, thank you for explaining. Granted, I will never know as a man what women go through in that venue. (45:49 - 46:28) But the only thing I would have everyone think of, a lot of times when the world pushes back, we look at, do we need to redefine our language? Like full-spectrum doula that you were discussing about in the beginning. And that reminded me of like, do we have to redefine marriage between one man and one woman because of when they had those changes a couple years back? And my thing is just stay the course, educate and explain why you're different and why that shouldn't be included, my opinion only. Very valid insight. (46:28 - 47:00) And I just wanna say, Peter, I'm always happy to see you pop up and glad that I can offer a resource because not everyone is going to want to or needs to come do a second certification through a Christian program. Some people are wanting to, but it's this cafe allows us to connect because I feel the same way. I was a part of NIDA, the National End of Life Doula Alliance, and I didn't renew my membership after a couple of years because I wasn't getting my needs met. (47:00 - 47:13) And I asked, would you incorporate faith? And there was no response. And since then, I've had a couple doulas write to NIDA and say, I'd like to join and incorporate faith. And there has been no response. (47:14 - 47:34) So, I would love to get more involved because I think that we should live our faith out in the world, right? But not necessarily as easy as it might look, but you're welcome all the time. This cafe is open to everyone. You don't have to be a doula. (47:34 - 47:48) You don't have to be a Christian. You can just come and say, you know what? I'm totally scared to talk about death or my mom died and I wasn't prepared. This is just a place to have these conversations. (47:48 - 48:05) And I have started an extra cafe on a Thursday night. The first Thursday of the month is a healing cafe. And we're just talking a little bit about what does it mean when we ask the Lord to heal us? And so, we're all in need of it. (48:06 - 48:24) Lisa, do you wanna share a little bit about yourself since we have a couple minutes left? Oh, you're not connected. We got you. And I don't even have my earbuds in this time. (48:24 - 48:38) It shouldn't have been a problem. About me, there was one specific thing I wanted to say. I'm from Indiana. (48:39 - 49:18) And I started studying with Laurel's program in February and was drawn to it because of my own experience with watching several people die throughout the last couple of decades. And then my husband a couple of years ago, and then my mom just a few months after that. And people had told me, God's gonna use what you went through to minister to others. (49:19 - 49:35) And when I discovered this whole thing, it went, bing, that's how. So, I was hoping to have been done and graduated by this month, but that's not gonna happen. Things have been crazy this summer. (49:36 - 49:55) But what I wanted to say specifically was I don't have any firsthand experience with birth doulas. I was not able to have children myself. But one of my cousins has nine children who have all been born at home with the aid of a doula. (49:58 - 50:17) And my nephew is fairly newly married about a year, year and a half ago. And his wife just started training to be a birth doula. So, we're kind of excited to bounce ideas off of each other from one end of the spectrum to the other. (50:18 - 50:27) Looking forward to that. That's awesome. Gentlemen, do you wanna, I don't know if you wanna come back on your screen. (50:28 - 50:36) Do you wanna say a little bit about yourself? We have about five more minutes. I host this for an hour. And then Kathy, we'll go to you. (50:37 - 50:42) About me? I'm sorry. I can't turn my video on. It said it's disabled by the host. (50:42 - 50:46) Oh, I gotta fix it. I'm so sorry. I've been trying. (50:46 - 50:50) Sorry about that. Okay, that's okay. All right, hi, everyone. (50:50 - 51:01) Thank you so much, Brittany. Even though this didn't apply to my life, I mean, I'm a senior. I'm not gonna have any children, but it's good as doulas to understand what each other does. (51:01 - 51:17) And now I know I can recommend this. I didn't even understand fully what you did. So, we appreciate your time and congrats on your new one, your precious new one, gift from above, right? So, yeah, I was in hospice. (51:17 - 51:34) My first career was in the oil field as a project manager. And then the last 10 years, I've been in Atlanta in healthcare hospice, working in senior homes. And this came up, Laurel's course just came up when I was not sure what I wanted to do next. (51:34 - 51:43) I didn't think I can work for hospice anymore. I didn't find one that cared about the patients. But as God has it, her course popped up. (51:43 - 52:00) And then my former hospice director called me and she said, do you know anything about being a death doula? And then I started Googling and here I am. So, I will be graduated. For those of us who have to work, we just make it to where we have to do the lessons in a timely manner. (52:00 - 52:10) And I just told everybody I'll be graduated in November and I'll be available to contract with them. So, thank you. Well, Donna's brought a real gift to this program. (52:11 - 52:33) Many gifts. One of the ones she's brought is she introduced me to a university, Aiden University in Florida. And Dr. Charles Travis has agreed to use my training program and credit hours for people in his university. (52:33 - 52:43) And so, if you're a part of that, you can get credits. Donna's gonna have credits for taking this course. And it's in the early, early stages. (52:44 - 53:03) So, we will figure more out about this. And just one more thing to keep adding and working on, but I am very excited about the opportunity that people could receive some credits for taking this. And hopefully, you'll be a guest speaker, hopefully, at the next conference. (53:03 - 53:13) I hope so. I need to write him. He sent me some info because... So, his university is that you can bring your life experience. (53:13 - 53:28) A lot of people may not have a pastoral degree in this or that, but they've worked in a church. They've worked in hospice care. And so, he has this special method of determining what your work is worth, his credits, and issued you a degree. (53:29 - 53:41) And so, I told him that I do have my master's, but I wouldn't mind like a D-min or something. And so, I think it would help my credentials to add it. And so, he and I are gonna work together. (53:42 - 53:53) And then, like Lisa, this summer was more on my plate than I thought. And so, I hadn't gotten it done. So, I owe him a follow-up, but I would love to speak. (53:53 - 54:13) And I'd love to see where... I'm excited to see the relationship roll out and be- I'll email Dr. Jack, who's in ACH, the American Chaplain Association, under their umbrella. And I'll ask them, when do you start planning the speakers and the program for next year? And I'll let you know. I would love it. (54:13 - 54:22) And I'll help you if you do something. I'll be back up your helper. Yep, it's wonderful opportunities. (54:22 - 54:33) Thank you, Donna. Kathy, you wanna just let us know a little bit about yourself and then we'll wrap up. Yeah, I have 12 grandkids, five great grandkids. (54:33 - 54:44) I've got people in and out of my life all the time. And so, that's why I'm really enjoying this. And I'm not, I don't like blood, I'm a fainter. (54:45 - 54:57) And so, I go, well, how can I be a part of people's lives and not, you know, I'm not a nurse type person, but I am a caregiver. I am a, I've always been a Bible study leader. I just care about people. (54:58 - 55:26) So, I'm going, this is the God. I think all of us feel called as God has pointed us in this direction going where in the heck did this come from, right? So, I'm very happy how God has intersected so many people's lives with me right now who are going through this with their parents or themselves or their husbands or whatever. So, it's been really interesting to watch God just use it as another tool in my tool belt in caring for people at this point of life. (55:27 - 55:37) I love that, love that. Well, let me just say a quick closing prayer and then we'll exit. Dear Heavenly Father, I just thank you for this time together. (55:37 - 55:53) I thank you for Brittany and the Biblical Birth School. I thank you for giving me the vision to create the Death and Resurrection Dual Training Program. And we just, we thank you for all those that you've called to enter into these spaces of, and be a servant. (55:54 - 56:24) And we just pray for every individual who is in training and those who are promoting their ministries inside their communities, that you will just bless this great endeavor all the way from the beginning of life to the end of life. Help us be faithful ministers to your word and hope that we can change the lives of people through our service because of the grace that you've given us in Jesus Christ. And we just lift all of our needs up to you in the name of Jesus, amen.